Kathy Kristof

Devil in the Details

Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

By Kathy Kristof | Jul 24, 2009 |

Roughly $392 disappeared from my 401(k) account, and it wasn’t because of investment returns. Your 401(k) is being whittled away too, but it’s hard to spot.

In fact, everyone with a 401(k) is getting hit with nearly invisible fees that have been the topic of legislation that continues to languish in Congress. Without individual uproar, these fees will remain invisible and you will be robbed blind by the people who administer your retirement account.

What are these fees for? The ones that are invisible are to “administer” your plan. Most 401(k) providers pay a third-party to tell you your balance, check to make sure the plan complies with IRS rules and provide participants with bells and whistles such as 401(k) loans. In years gone by, the companies that offered 401(k) plans paid these fees as an employee benefit. Today, your employer is far more likely to pass the fees on to you. Because the fee is invisible to the person paying it, and the people negotiating the fee don’t have a lot of skin in the game, the fees are sometimes outrageously high. You, the hapless consumer, get robbed silently.

It’s worth mentioning that you also pay “management” fees to the mutual funds that are offered within your plan. However, those fees are likely to be disclosed clearly in a prospectus offered by the fund company, should you choose to read it. These fees reduce your investment returns (or increase your losses) and become part of the annual profit or loss on your account.

How much do fees matter? If you have $10,000 saved now and add $500 a month to it, a 1 percentage point fee will cost you $300,000 over 30 years, assuming historic average annual investment returns. That fee, which is about average, causes you to give up about $1,800 a month in retirement income. Some 401(k)s charge about half that much in fees; others charge twice as much. You, unfortunately, probably don’t know how much you’re paying.

The Fair Disclosure for Retirement Security Act of 2009, sponsored by Rep. George Miller, D-California, aims to change that by demanding that all fees–management, administrative and transactional–be disclosed in quarterly account statements. it would also require that any company that doesn’t want to be held liable for worker retirement security offer at least one low-cost index fund.

The purveyors of retirement accounts ranging from sponsoring companies to insurance companies and mutual fund firms that administer the plans have been fighting these disclosures, saying that consumers will not understand them and they’ll discourage people from contributing to retirement plans.

That is, however, a little like saying that if you disclose crime statistics, it will discourage people from wandering aimlessly in bad areas. That’s not necessarily a bad thing. In reality, suppliers are worried about their profits and companies are worried that they’ll get sued for failing to negotiate lower fees.

But those of us who hope to retire some day really need to be concerned about the fees. They are silent killers of your retirement fund. And as things stand, they’re largely hidden.

The first inkling I got of the nearly $400 draining out of my account (which, incidentally, doesn’t include the investment management fees) came from a mismatch. Earlier this year, I had fed my 401(k) information into a third-party web site that would compile all of my investment information in one spot. One day last week I noticed that the balance at that aggregator site was higher than the actual balance reported by the 401(k). After a more careful look, I realized that I suddenly had fewer shares in my 401(k) than I’d had a few weeks before.

How does this happen? If you are not actively contributing to a 401(k), and I wasn’t because this is a former employer’s plan, the administrative fees are collected by selling a portion of your shares. In one week, I lost roughly three shares.

But, I knew that wasn’t the extent of it, so I continued to search the 401(k) site to find an account statement. If you’re lucky, your employer will disclose the administrative fees on these statements as a line item, as did my former employer. Otherwise, I would have had to estimate the fees by figuring out how many shares I’d lost to fees and how many I’d gained from dividends since the beginning of the year. That’s not easy. And if you’re actively contributing to the plan, it’s practically impossible because while they’re deducting shares to account for the fees, you’re buying shares with your monthly contributions. That math can be a nightmare.

I don’t begrudge anyone for making a living and recognize that fees are a natural consequence of investing. After all, investment managers have to eat too. But when the fees are hidden, it’s pretty easy to get robbed.

 
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  •  
    1

    crondanet5

    07/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    Does your 401k plan allow you to open a self-directed brokerage account?

  •  
    2

    Kathy Kristof

    07/25/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    Mine doesn't. But some do.

  •  
    3

    crondanet5

    07/26/09 | Report as spam

    Message has been deleted.

  •  
    4

    crondanet5

    07/26/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    Golly day it worked. Okie dokie. First, disclosure: I am not a licensed financial adviser and I do not work in that area, but one thing I noticed in your article was that this account was through a former employer? If yes, many advisers would recommend "rolling over" your old 401k into an account you can manage. If this is the case, you could then make that move. And if this is in fact your situation, I would offer you some specific advice on where and how to place your money to make your account grow quickly. Actually I love to share this information as a means of testing its worth in case someone has a better way of doing it. So far, so good. Let me know if I am correct about your 401k, and you would like to really grow it into something meaningful.

  •  
    5

    Kathy Kristof

    07/27/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    This account is at a former employer. I'd be interested to see
    what you'd recommend.

  •  
    6

    crondanet5

    07/27/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    Every financial adviser I listen to would recommend your moving your money out of your former employer's program and into something else. Remember the employees of Enron? The question is where do you move it to? May I suggest the following: goto npr.org. click on Fresh Air. Enter the date July 7, 2008. The show was "Preserving Your Pension in Tough Times" Now here is the hard part. Figure out how to listen (not read the writeup) to the show. Call it the primer in the need for all of us to responsibly manage our retirement accounts. I guarantee you will love The Red Truck Syndrome we all privately yearn for. So do your assignment for this posting and we'll resume this conversation tomorrow. Okay?

  •  
    7

    Kathy Kristof

    07/28/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    Went there but didn't see the story you're talking about. How
    about just explaining what's up. FYI, the Enron disaster was
    because the employees invested in company stock. Those who
    purchased a well-diversified group of mutual funds within the
    401k were just fine.

  •  
    8

    crondanet5

    07/28/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    I believe it was West Virginia teachers opted for 401k accounts rather than pensions. When the men retired, they bought a new red truck with the 401 k money. Then their 401k money ran out and they did not have a happy retirement. End result was a return to a pension system. But you have a 401k you can move. So now I have to do my homework and develop what I was conceptualizing today that might be a novel approach to financial planning the entire industry might latch onto. Unless their computerized programs already do it. Remember, I am not licensed to do anything but drive a car, and half the people who ride with me question that as well. So I'll be back. For you, this is serious. For me interesting because the way I will present this possible plan applies to me and everyone else as well. I want to get it right before presenting it to you. As you know, the Devil is in the Details. happy

  •  
    9

    crondanet5

    07/29/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    So the chance to move a 401k is special. And here is the start of my suggestion for how you can go about it. Step 1 is to subtract your present age from the age at which you wish to retire. Multiply that figure times 252 to determine the maximum possible number of times you can increase the balance in your rolled over 401k. Where did the number 252 come from you ask? That is the number of market trading days in the year, so those are the days you can gain wealth. I am hoping this number exceeds 8,820 for you, but no matter-- it is becoming distinctly aware of the precious remaining days you have to gain wealth that matters, not the number. This is important in determining how much risk you want to take to achieve your wealth accumulation goal. Does this make sense? Should I continue?

  •  
    10

    Kathy Kristof

    07/29/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    If you're suggesting active trading in individual stocks, I'm not
    interested. Active trading is a losing game (check out Terry
    Odean's study called "Boys Will Be Boys.") And it requires a
    hobby-like interest in picking individual stocks. In my book,
    Investing 101, I have a chapter called The Lazy Investor's
    Portfolio Planner. That's how I invest. I want to spend my
    time with my family and friends, not sitting at a computer
    screen delving into price/earnings ratios and cash flow.
    But if I've simply misunderstood you, please do go on.

  •  
    11

    crondanet5

    07/30/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    The real issue is how to best place this "movable" 401k. I would suggest you go to mutualfundstore.com. Adam monitors some 4300 mutual funds, how they are doing, who is managing them, how long they've managed it, etc. I trust his advice. I also like his thought about management fees: "If the fund gives me a 15% return, would I pay a higher fee? Sure, wouldn't you?" Different perspective. I'm not associated with him or his company except I listen to his radio show. Good luck.

  •  
    12

    Kathy Kristof

    07/31/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    Thanks much for the suggestion. I've spoken to Adam while
    reporting other 401(k) stories. This is all personal preference,
    of course. But I like dealing directly with mutual fund
    companies that I like--generally the low-cost providers like
    Vanguard and T. Rowe Price. Then, for something like this, I
    buy Exchange Traded Funds because I like the fact that they
    mirror index funds and that they're so cheap. For less than
    one-tenth of one percentage point, I can get the
    performance of the market.

    To your point on a 15% return...The answer, of course, is
    sure. But no fund company can guarantee that. The only
    thing that's guaranteed are the charges and they OUT of my
    return.

    Jack Bogle, former Chairman of Vanguard, has done some
    great research on fund returns and found that the best
    predictor of future returns is not past returns--it's fees. The
    more you pay, the less there is to put in your pocket. Those
    results, by the way, have been duplicated time and time
    again. That's why you're seeing an increasing number of
    experts recommending "passive" management--i.e. index
    funds.

    If you're interested in more, check out my book "Investing
    101." I've got a chapter called "The Lazy Investor's Portfolio
    Planner," which explains how to put together a portfolio of
    index funds that you can set and forget.

  •  
    13

    Kathy Kristof

    07/31/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    Ah...the argument for proofreading before you hit send...

    I meant to say that the fees COME OUT of my returns...

  •  
    14

    crondanet5

    07/31/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    Ah...indeed. Grammaticals pain me deeply. Too bad about your decision with your movable 401k. But before I shake the dust off my keyboard and move on, perhaps I should disclose that my 401k is with the federal Thrift Savings Plan (TSP). I didn't think I needed it, so after my first 3 years of federal employment went by and a fellow employee advised they had $33,000 in their 401k a light bulb flashed and a closed door in my mind opened. So I began contributing and making moves to maximize the value of the account. It is now 6 figures, and is greater than 90% of all TSP accounts in the program. It was not the contributions to the account, it was how the cash in the account was managed. So that's my story. Still fully invested, working to recover some of those October losses. But you have to set a goal with your 401k(s). You have to make them achieve what you need to secure your retirement. That was the picture I began to paint here, and you still have the opportunity to make that account meaningful. I think you might find Adam's advice bery helpful and his technical approach interesting. Your call. At the least, I am happy you are taking action to move that account into something better than where it is now. By the way, what do you think of Eric's article about changing the 401k program? I agree 401k's as developed in the US do not provide a meaningful retirement for most, but forced savings? Limited choices? Diversification? Ughhhhhh! Comment?

  •  
    15

    Kathy Kristof

    07/31/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    I don't think you can or should force people to save. But if
    they want to save, I think the 401(k) is a very useful tool to
    do that. I started saving at my first full-time job when I was
    23. I never missed the money I contributed but have
    managed to sock away a very "meaningful" amount, despite
    the recent market losses. If I could tell every college kid one
    thing, it would be that you don't have to do anything fancy
    to be a millionaire someday. Just start saving now. Save
    consistently. Invest in a wisely diversified portfolio of stocks.
    You'll wake up wealthy one day. Honest.

  •  
    16

    crondanet5

    08/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    Here's a couple of funds for you to consider using in your savings account-er 401k: Adam likes that Loomis bond fund. And I also heard that BIRMX, RYSVX, FAHTX and DEAAX have done well of late. I don't use these as investment tools but they might get your account up to the level of bragging rights at the bar on a Friday night. I lean heavily toward Asia myself.

  •  
    17

    Kathy Kristof

    08/03/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    I couldn't disagree more with your fund picks. BIRMX is a high
    cost fund that has a one-star ranking from Morningstar. Both
    it and RSYVX are small cap funds, which have all done well of
    late. FAHTX is a health care fund that also has high fees and
    has a negative 0.3% five year return. DEAAX is an emerging
    Asia fund that's done great in the past few months, but lost
    61% of its value in the past year.
    I think you are far better off focusing on low-cost funds and
    following a strategy--holding a set amount of your money in
    big stock; small stock; international; bonds, etc.--that isn't
    buffetted by the market.
    If you chase returns, you will discover that you are not
    psychic....and it will be the most costly lesson of your life.

  •  
    18

    crondanet5

    08/05/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    Not my picks. It was Adam on Loomis, and some woman from Morningstar on the Nightly Business Report for the others. I'm in the TSP, 20% S Fund, 80% I Fund.

  •  
    19

    Kathy Kristof

    08/05/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    Ah...that's a relief. Never get investment picks from television.
    It's the Cramer syndrome. He heralds some stock, it jumps on
    his recommendation and then falls like a rock. My colleague
    Larry Swedroe did a great job of explaining how bad this can be
    for your portfolio. You might want to check out the post "Stop
    Listening to Cramer."

  •  
    20

    crondanet5

    08/05/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    In respect to not being in those funds, yes. In respect to the TSP account, no. There is a web site www.tspcenter.com where all the fed boys in the TSP hang out. Some have the most convincing arguments that this market is a repeat of the 1929 market. Others fret lack of volume. And that 2 trade per month rule is difficult to determine when to reallocate as more than once I have had to sit out big moves in the last half of the month. A fellow could get gray hair trying to manage a TSP account. I'm just pleased to find there is intelligence amongst the public sector our taxes pay for, and that you are more actively managing your retirement accounts.

  •  
    21

    Kathy Kristof

    08/05/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    1929 was different, in my mind, for one compelling reason:
    Deposit insurance. During the Great Depression, even people
    who had been thrifty and did everything right lost everything
    because their banks failed and couldn't make good on their
    promises. It made that depression far worse and last a lot
    longer, in my opinion. Today's recession is a serious one. But
    people who had savings have a cushion to ride it out and
    that makes a huge difference. I think the market reflects
    that.

    By the same token, I think the pundits are way early in
    predicting that this recession is over. I think many of today's
    "green shoots" are made of artificial turf--government
    subsidies that spur economic growth only as long as they're
    funded.

  •  
    22

    agunawanika

    08/13/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    still reading this article..and try to understand...:P

    stop dreaming start action

  •  
    23

    Kathy Kristof

    08/13/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    Sorry. What's confusing you? I'll try to be more clear.

  •  
    24

    Mrs. E

    08/20/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    I just wish I had been taught anything at all about 401K's or saving money as a young person. I lost my first 403B to fees when the company that handled it did not respond to my requests to roll it into my new employers plan. They also included a neat road block requiring my ex-husband to sign off on the transfer despite the dissolution clearly stating that all retirement funds would be separated with the divorce and stay with the spouse who earned them. So I just watched the statements continue to show lower and lower numbers while my requests went unheeded until they took so much that it no longer qualified to be managed and they sent me a check for $500. Somehow that seems like it should have been illegal, they stole my money.

  •  
    25

    Kathy Kristof

    08/21/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    That does sound like it should have been illegal. How long ago
    did this happen?
    There's a wonderful non-profit group called The Pension Rights
    Center, which can often help people who are in untenable
    situations with a retirement plan provider (employer or vendor).
    If this was relatively recent--or if you have any other pension-
    related issues requiring savvy and seasoned help, I'd suggest
    you give them a call at 202-296-3776.
    Good luck.

  •  
    26

    Mrs. E

    08/21/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    Thank you so much for the information! I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

  •  
    27

    Kathy Kristof

    08/21/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    That's what we're here for.
    When you have questions, suggestions, problems, I hope you'll
    let me know. I can't always help, but I'll always try.

  •  
    28

    mid-coast Mainer

    08/21/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    "If you're suggesting active trading in individual stocks, I'm not interested. Active trading is a losing game (check out Terry Odean's study called "Boys Will Be Boys.") And it requires a hobby-like interest in picking individual stocks. In my book, Investing 101, I have a chapter called The Lazy Investor's Portfolio Planner. That's how I invest."

    The above referenced study is dated. Do you think "buy and hold" is still a good strategy? What do you think about this: 'Traditional investment strategies and asset allocation techniques no longer seem to apply. Correlations between asset classes, such as equities, bonds, volatility, and the U.S. dollar, link up and move apart with no apparent logic. Academic theories that are the cornerstones of the profession -- such as portfolio diversification and market efficiency -- seem outdated and archaic today'.

  •  
    29

    crondanet5

    08/21/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    Mrs. E, the great and wonderful news is that you can start anew with your new employer's 401(k) while you follow Kathy's advice. Also, if you can recover the lost monies, they can be rolled over into your new employer's account, or you could open a rollover 401(k) with either a brokerage firm or a mutual fund company and make that account grow as well. I fear you have walked into a rather heavy duty conversation in the comment section of this article as I am every financial advisor's null hypothesis when it comes to developing a retirement program. So I'll back off from this article, and please do ask Kathy questions. If you would like my take on alternative methods, just say: "Crondanet5, what do you suggest?" and I'll step in until Kathy kicks me out. Your active use of your employer's 401(k) program is extremely important as it has tax advantages and possibly matching monies as well. My employer pays me an additional 5% because I put enough into the program to receive that money {in my retirement account, for later, not now}. And it's tax free for now. So I urge you to keep in contact with Kathy and build yourself a great retirement program. One of the people I listen to urges everyone to set aside 20% of their gross income toward retirement, not for an emergency fund, not to be touched when you change employers again, but dedicate it toward your retirement. Life can be much nicer when you have more than just Social Security to look forward to keeping you going when you retire. Best of luck, you can do it. happy

  •  
    30

    crondanet5

    08/21/09 | Report as spam

    Message has been deleted.

  •  
    31

    crondanet5

    08/21/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    Arrgh. This web site drives me nuts accepting and rejecting comments. mid-coast Mainer I agree with you. Only beware as this web site is rife with writers who disagree with the idea of selling rather than holding. Witness Larry Swedroe. No matter. Here's the deal: I agree with you, and we are outside New York, and we can make money while they sit in their cubicles telling us not to. For instance, Wednesday I bought a stock position in my Roth margin brokerage account. I sold it today at almost the highest price of the day (established at 0530 this morning) because I'm not sure what the markets will do Monday. Now I've been called a day trader, which I vigorously deny. I am simply a part time stock certificate transfer facilitator, okay? If it takes ten minutes that's fine with me. 2 days? Okay. 2 months? (Buy and hold). No. Here's my model: Say you and I buy 10,000 shares of the xyz corporation on 2 Jan. You hold it all year. I buy and sell as the price rises and falls. On 31 Dec the price is 20 cents higher than it was last 2 Jan. Who made more money? Until Kathy and Larry, and etc. persuade me otherwise, I'll stick to helping people acquire the share certificatres they want at my price. I only use one or two stocks. Just need some Beta. Remember what Warren Buffet said: "Buy when others sell, sell when others buy." He didn't say how long to hold or how much the stock should go up when you sell. I'll stop here and let Kathy turn us both around and we can sit in TIPS until we retire. You on the coast? You ever hear Old Greasy Frog call out in the fog to keep the boats off the rocks?

  •  
    32

    mid-coast Mainer

    08/22/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    I am honestly struggling with these different approaches to investing and would love to hear Kathy's (& Larry's) thoughts. I, like her, don't want to be spending a lot of time and energy at my computer paying attention to the market, but I wonder if conditions in the market have changed (per my post above) such that 'buy and hold' is problematic. I'm actually looking for some help to feel OK about 'buy and hold' but need answers to assertions e.g. the one in my post above about correlations. Thanks.

  •  
    33

    crondanet5

    08/22/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    The concept of correlations escapes me. But may I add fuel to your "conjecturing fire" by saying that in this up market environment it may seem like buy and hold is the way to go whereas catching the lows and highs may prove more valuable to the amount in your account. I grapple with the question of the rate of change exhibited by certain stocks, and wonder if it would be best to sell the one I hold in order to buy another that seems to have a more exuberant daily rate of change. Example: Ford was experiencing a daily change of at least 10 cents above the opening price. So I waited to see what the opening price was, put in a bid 5 or 10 cents lower, then went out and worked on winter ice storm dropped branches. Checked the CNBC quote now and again on my Blackberry until it hit my buy price. Took a break from the branch routine and went in and set a sell order 10 cents above my buy price and went back outside. Please note the huge amount of time spent in front of the computer LOL. Sometime around 11 or 1130 it usually sold. No rocket scientist here. But the price differentiation in Ford went away. Should I have continued to buy and sell it, or find another? I found another. It's sort of like riding escalators from floor to floor. One escalator only gets you so far, then you gotta switch. This said, again, I am acutely aware of the fact that if I had bought and held Ford it would have gone up anyway. Only Ford didn't go up in a straight line. And when it dropped I was able to buy more shares and gain more wealth (I call it gaining as opposed to making money as I do not consider it made money until it is cash in my brokerage account). It's your call what you want to do. Me? I just found another interesting stock so I'll keep on trading until Kathy has a chance to straighten me out. Be prepared for a wonderful discussion.

  •  
    34

    Kathy Kristof

    08/23/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    First, Mid-Coast, no. I don't think that market conditions
    have changed (other than being rotten now vs. great for a
    long time before 2000). Volatile markets were the norm until
    the 1990s, when it seemed that the only volatility was on the
    up side.
    I also think there is a time to sell, but it's based on
    fundamentals, not market momentum.
    If you look at an individual stock and think it's fairly valued.
    In other words, it's trading within its normal price/earnings
    range and you don't see anything dramatic happening with
    the company or industry that makes you less (or more)
    enthused about owning a piece of this company, you keep it.
    If, however, the stock is selling for far more than you think
    its worth based on earnings and future prospects, you sell. I
    suggest looking at your portfolio and evaluating all your
    stocks once or twice a year, either on some regular formula
    or when some stock has had a startling run, up or down.
    This calm approach saves you from trying to pretend your
    psychic; saves time and makes filing your tax return vastly
    easier.

  •  
    35

    Kathy Kristof

    08/23/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    Crondanet, two things. First, I'm not kicking you out unless
    you start selling something. I think the greatest thing about a
    blog is the ability to air vying perspectives.
    I have plenty of friends who share your views. One once told
    me "I'm not a day trader. I'm an every-other-day trader." I
    thought the comment was funny. But on a serious note, I see
    this type of trading more as gambling or a hobby than the
    type of long-term investing that I think makes sense for most
    people.
    I'll admit, too, that I've even done a bit of this myself, buying
    and selling Disney shares when they seemed to be in a
    trading range, to essentially get more shares at a time when I
    really liked the company. But from everything I've seen in 25
    years of covering the markets, active trading is more likely to
    produce substandard returns than exceptional ones. It helps
    that you're trading within a tax-favored account.
    But this isn't something that I'd recommend for someone who
    didn't like watching the markets so much that they consider it
    a hobby. Its just more time, attention and risk than the
    average person would want to take.
    You obviously like the game. So I'm going to hope that you
    can continue to win at it.

  •  
    36

    Kathy Kristof

    08/23/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    Mid-coast, sorry for the grammatical errors in my answer to
    you. I think you get the point. But it's early. It's Sunday. And I
    need more coffee.

  •  
    37

    crondanet5

    08/23/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    Not quite a hobby. My goal is a thousand dollar gain each trading day. Some days yes, others I'm too busy. But every day is a learning day, and every successful trade puts me closer to retiring on my terms and not social security. When you talk of investing over time, alas, I must stand beside Napoleon who said: "Ask me for anything but time." If an investor (a) has time {25 years}, and (b) a million dollar account, then yes long-term investing is justified, particularly in preserving that already attained wealth. So I reveal my card that I am not a high-end player, just a fly in the ointment. My message is that anyone can succeed in achieving a great financial retirement if they are attentive to information that comes their way, willing to involve themselves in achieving their retirement finances, and able to act upon risk at whatever level they feel comfortable with. I say again, it is like a field of ripe strawberries, and you have as big a bucket to fill as you desire. So, start picking. Now, what was the second thing you were going to say to me?

  •  
    38

    mid-coast Mainer

    08/23/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    Kathy, what about mutual funds and ETFs? Seems like one can't determine if they remain fairly valued the way one can with stocks. So just stick to your asset allocation and rebalance once a year? And what about the correlation thing? I've read in various places that investments in the last downturn did not behave as they 'should' have, which makes the notion of portfolio diversification problematic. Thanks.

  •  
    39

    Kathy Kristof

    08/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    There's a misconception about correlation in that people think
    it means that markets that are not closely correlated will go
    in opposite directions at the same time. That would actually
    reflect correlation, just negative correlation. What the term is
    meant to reflect is that different markets move independently
    based on different criteria. Thus, they'll sometimes move in
    concert; sometimes not.
    What got to people with the meltdown at the end of 2008 is
    that there was no where to hide. U.S. stocks; foreign stocks
    and real estate all crashed at the same time. There were
    relationships between the markets since they had all been
    fueled by easy money and bad business practices. All it took
    was for one domino to fall to get everything else to topple.
    That situation, I think, is fairly rare.
    There's still plenty to worry about in the investment world.
    But I don't think that all the markets are likely to move in
    concert again. (I think that stocks are going to recover--with
    lots of sickening drops along the way--over the next two
    years, but I think bonds are likely to crash.)
    As for evaluating ETFs and index funds, you look at the p/e
    of the overall market (and/or the dividend yield).
    If you invest in actively-managed funds, you need to look at
    the fund manager and what kind of track record he or she
    has by looking at their year-by-year returns (to see
    volatility); their turnover rate (to see how much churning is
    going on, which gives you a glimpse of investment style and
    conviction) and fees, which tell you how much the manager is
    taking off the top before you get anything.
    I don't mind volatility, if I understand why it's happening--i.e.
    they've investing in volatile markets such as small company
    stocks or emerging markets. But I don't like churning and hate
    high fees. With a mutual fund, the most consistent
    determinant of return to shareholders is fees. The lower the
    fees, the better the shareholder returns.

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    40

    mid-coast Mainer

    08/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    Thanks for your response. Why do you think bonds are likely to crash?

  •  
    41

    Kathy Kristof

    08/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Robbing You Slowly: How Your 401(k) Gets Drained Away

    Because the government is taking on a record amount of debt
    (as compared to Gross Domestic Product), which raises the
    prospect of inflation and rising interest rates. When interest
    rates rise, the value of old (relatively low rate) bonds falls.
    The longer the bond, the steeper the drop.
    FYI, I wrote a book called Investing 101. Much of the first
    edition originated as a series of newspaper articles that are
    still published on the Los Angeles Times web site at
    www.latimes.com. (They keep moving the series, so you may
    have to click around a bit.) I've since updated the book and
    that's also available on Amazon. But, much of the information
    on the impact of rising interest rates on bonds; how to pick
    individual stocks or evaluate whether a market (or share) is
    fairly priced, underpriced or overpriced is timeless and those
    lessons are on line and free.

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Kathy Kristof

Kathy Kristof is a syndicated personal finance columnist, speaker and author of three books, including the recently updated Investing 101 (Bloomberg, 2008).

Kathy Kristof

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