The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

By Lynn O'Shaughnessy | Jul 21, 2009 |

Business administration is always a strong contender for honors as the most popular college major. This is no surprise since students think business is their entree to making big bucks.

But is business administration really as lucrative as students and their parents believe? Nope.

In a new survey of salaries by college degree, business administration didn’t even break into the list of the top 10 or 20 most lucrative college degrees, according to the latest annual salary survey by PayScale, Inc. A variety of engineering majors claim eight of the top 10 salary spots with chemical engineering ($65,700) winning best of show for starting salaries.

Out of 75 undergrad college majors, business administration ($42,900) came in 35th, behind such degrees as occupational therapy ($61,300) and information technology ($49,400).

What I found equally fascinating were the college majors that lead to the most anemic paychecks. Here are the worst paying college degrees:

College Degrees Starting Salary Mid-career median salary

Social Work $33,400 $41,600
Elementary Education $33,000 $42,400
Theology $34,800 $51,500
Music $34,000 $52,000
Spanish $35,600 $52,600
Horticulture $37,200 $53,400
Education $36,200 $54,100
Hospitality/Tourism $37,000 $54,300
Fine Arts $35,800 $56,300
Drama $35,600 $56,600

Further reading. Want to learn more about college strategies? Read more of my posts:

The Best Colleges You’ve Never Heard Of

Graduate from Berkeley in Just 2 Years

4 Smart Ways to Boost Your SAT Score for Less

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1

Stephen Howard-Sarin

07/22/09 | Report as spam

Hmmm... I wonder where B.A. in Rhetoric lands?

My alum offered it, and I cannily opted for the more-commercial Rhetoric degree instead of my first urge: Comparative Religion. See, I know where the green is!
2

The College Solution

07/22/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

Hey, religious studies barely missed making the worst-degree list. It came in right after drama.
3

onelia

07/23/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

mmm, my undergrad was a B.Business (Hospitality & Tourism Management). This has just reinforced that I made the right choice becomming a public servant 8)
4

dr. hirsch

07/23/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

I think "The Best and Worst College Degrees" misses the point. It is not reasonable to look only at major as a salary determinant; equally, if not more important, is the college or university attended. Graduates of highly esteemed institutions reap the benefits of the "signaling" aspect of their degrees...in most cases, the marketplace rewards graduation from a top school. So the economics major from Princeton may well land a job with a higher salary than that of an engineering graduate from a non-prestigious institution.
It is difficult to translate the subtle advantages of attending an elite school into an exact salary premium equation, but the advantages are very real. As a former director of several college career centers, including one at a highly prestigious women's college, I saw this effect firsthand. For example, some of the most sought-after employers only recruit at this tier of schools; this greatly disadvantages students at lower tier institutions who do not have access to this means of entry. And in the informal venue of job search by networking, there is a clear pattern of alumnae/i facilitating the access of other graduatesof their same college seeking employment in the alum's organization. In these instances, the benefit of graduating from a prestigious institution is multiplied: the alum benefitted when (s)he found her job, and then the new graduate benefits from both her own degree and the assistance of the well-placed alum.
Without question, some fields are generally better paid than others, and, to some extent, there are valid connections to be drawn regarding the likelihood of landing a higher paid position if one has graduated from a school with a degree in the high-value field. But it is too simplistic to explain salary by degree alone.
5

Summerdog

07/23/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

Absolutely correct. A degree in butt-sniffing from Harvard will work more wonders for you than a degree in physics from Yakima State.
6

bjnbrown

07/23/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

The mid-career numbers may also be biased. Many 50 year old scientists and engineers where laid off in a recession and ended up being forced to restart their careers in a lower paying profession or working contract/temp. Many of the employment statistics don't track these "used up" workers very well.
7

Plecostomus

07/23/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

I observe that this list of worst degrees for making money, follows right the same path as a host of other cultural values: in general, if you observe, there is a valuing of assertion/aggression and a devaluing of receptivity/gentleness in our culture. Think "Yin-Yang" or "Masculine-Feminine" or workforce-homeforce - or Business-Healthcare, or Profits-families. This culture values Yang at the expense of Yin - so engineers and tech folk can make a good income (no fault to them), but teachers, cannot; and so the proposed budget in Calif includes no taxes on Big Oil (and California is the only oil producing state that doesn't tax oil companies), but cuts education. We yammer about "family values" but the people below the poverty line are women & children, and family planning doesn't get funded. "Health care" is important - until it means that Insurance companies suffer. This isn't to say that it "should" be the other way around. But balance would be an improvement. Maybe then, people whose contributions to society are on the soft-side-of-things, will be able to earn at a level comparable to those whose contributions are on the hard-side-of-things.
8

The College Solution

07/23/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

Dr. Hirsch -- I think you overstate the case of grads of Ivy League schools hogging all the jobs worth having. Only .2% of college students end up at these eight schools and you can't tell me that they have a monopoly on all the best jobs.

Please read my latest post on the schools that are producing the highest paid grads. Ever heard of Loma Linda University?

Here is the link to the post: http://moneywatch.bnet.com/saving-money/blog/college-solution/colleges-that-produce-the-highest-paid-grads/587/?tag=col1;blog-river
9

vampirekwc

07/24/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

It's appalling that Elementary Education and Education fall on this list. Frankly, I think teachers have pretty close to the most important job in America and their salaries should reflect that. It's disgusting that we gripe about the level of illiteracy and the lack of decent math/science programs, yet we pay teachers a measly $35k. I'd like to see those numbers doubled (at least) to lure the best and brightest people to help shape tomorrow's workforce.
10

dtpnola

07/24/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

You didn't mention Zoology. Many zoo keepers have a Ph. D. and shovel poop for hours a day for less than $40k a year.
11

g.a.smith

07/24/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

Amen to increasing teacher's salaries, at ALL levels. It shames us as a nation that people in charge of educating our children are some of the poorest paid.
12

mike at profiles

07/24/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

Plecostomus.
Wow what contradictions. You chastise California regarding taxes on oil but California deals with natural sludge that comes up on shore each year costing millions. They have one of the largest off shore oil reserves that would supply their economy with an estimated 2 billion dollars annually but they won't drill. So you answer is to penalize corporations or business because the California "yang" approach doesn't work. I agree that insurance needs to be improved but not by transferring it to government. The government programs we approved in the past morphed into something they weren't design to be and cost billions more than estimated. Let's take insurance out of the hands of business; buy it like you buy car or house insurance that way it's portable, allow companies to sell across state lines creating competition, pass tort reform so doctors aren't compelled to practice defensive medicine are just a few common sense suggestions. As a former school board trustee I agree with your assertion that teachers should get paid more but that won't happen as long as unions have control. As a board member I proposed merit pay increases to exceptional teachers and bonuses for teachers that did not force us to use substitutes (we had one teacher that missed 30 and could not fire her) but it was struck down because of fear of the unions! I could go on but I don't think the space will allow.
13

Legal Cat

07/24/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

Does this report take into consideration the many perks that teachers have? I doubt it. They gripe and strike if they have to pay 5% of their healthcare premium while we in healthcare have been paying at least 10% for many years now.
14

xixino1

07/24/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

It is really sad that people only care about jobs like engineering and technology. If you look at the list of "worst paying jobs," those are the kinds of jobs that would improve the world and feed one's soul through altruism and creative self-expression.
15

clarkm

07/24/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

In my community teachers actually make more than reasonable salaries. Yes, the starting salary is close to the posted numbers, but they rise quickly and far exceed the mid-career numbers shown. Take into consideration that it is almost impossible to fire them regardless of their performance, they get fully paid benefits, contribute nothing to their retirement funds and work roughly 3/4 of a year, their pay far exceeds comparable professionals. Further, they can retire in their mid-50's with full pay and benefits, while the rest of the population is working well into their late 60's and early 70's to pay for all of this. Now, in a declining economy, they will continue to get their guaranteed 3.5% raise every year of the current contract plus annual cost-of-living increases. They ***** about it all the time and don't actually realize what those of us in the real world are truly faced with. (I know I ended that sentence with a proposition so I don't want to hear from the teachers regarding my education.)

I know that is not true for all teachers across the country but I don't agree that we have left them down. The reality of compensation is not as described by Plecostumus but rather, what it takes to replace you. If a person can be taken off the street and easily trained to do your job then it's not likely to pay very much. I believe the derogatory term is the "trained monkey". While we are actually talking about college educated professions, the concept still applies. As I recall, every person who dropped out of engineering at my school went into business or communications. Maybe that's why they are so far down the list. No yin and yang about it.

One last gripe, vampirekwc would like to see us raise teachers salaries to get the best and the brightest. If you do that then you need to significantly raise the qualifications, both for starting out and retaining or advancing. As it is now, we have the worst and the dullest migrating toward education because it is an easy degree to acquire and actually pays fairly well for the job requirements. Plus summers off. My apologies to those educators who actually are worth their weight and then some.
16

sdcappel

07/24/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

Those who select the professions on the Worst College degrees may have other criteria they feel brings more value than money only! Just a thought... We all make choices and decide what is most important to us!
17

tguarnera

07/24/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

This is a just a list of average salaries based on degree (school ranking for example). I see posts here that say it isn't complete and other factors play importance. Yes, of course, that goes without saying.

What I would like to see is a relational data list. Look at factors like school prominence, job market and such could be factored in. What does a degree in Social Work from Princeton get you as compared to a Computer Science from Fresno State.

Oh then there are soft(er) factors like how you apply yourself and any work experience you may have gained prior to graduation.

Here is something to ponder... Could it be considered irresponsible to loan a student $50-$60K to get a degree from Princeton? Pull the logic from the home loan crash. Just as it isn?t smart to give someone with bad credit and an annual income of $45K a $300K loan, is it smart to loan someone money who will be less likely to be able to pay those loans back? Strip away the emotion of the importance of an education and look at it strictly from a business decision.
18

d3wrs01

07/24/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

In the final analysis, it really doesn't matter what someone's undergrad degree is, nor does it matter what college they've attended. What matters is the person's attitude, ambition, flexibility, and a healthy sense of who they are. For example, a person with an undergrad degree in sociology from Whatsamatta U. can go on to graduate school and concentrate on whatever interests them and turn out to be a high earner with a high satisfaction level.
19

The College Solution

07/24/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

D3wrso1

I totally agree with you: where you get your undergrad degree doesn't matter. The time to aim for top brand names is when you apply for graduate school. It's the advanced degrees that will dramatically impact your future earnings potential.
20

Dave.J

07/25/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

Interesting article and more interesting discussion. As a former teacher, I agree that the wages could use a boost, but coming from a state that pays them well and has a huge union influence, I disagree that they get paid too little in all cases. I realize many teachers are poorly paid, but in my state that is not so true. Remember, they are not full year employees and that is a huge perk, along with ongoing paid education. Look at Social Workers, who usually need a MSW to start and the influence they have on the lives of our children and families... that's a field I'd focus on improving first (and I am not a social worker).
21

lraufman@...

07/26/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

As a career counselor at a community college in California, I have watched students transfer to private and public colleges over the past 30 years. Very few of our students get to the Ivy League (although I have heard of quite a few who move East for Graduate School). Engineering and Business majors (no matter what school they have attended) have gotten the top salaries for decades even though the recession periods cut into the Business majors opportunities. People who go into Business, no matter what their majors, also have, on average, earned higher salaries by mid career. I think the "worst" degree list which shows liberal arts majors starting around $30,000 and having a mid career salary of $55,000 is most telling. For most "average" students in state universities, $55,000 is not bad. It is only bad if you are from an Ivy League University and you know many people earning $100,000-$200,000

By the way, 2 year degree Registered Nurses now start at salaries around $41,000 and mid career salary averages $60,000-$70,000. (More statistics can be found at Salary.com.)

Yes, I definitely agree with D3wrso1. There are many other factors that account for the majority of people who get good jobs as well as what constitutes what a good job is.

As a matter of fact, for those who want to know what graduates earn: many universities list on their Career Center websites current studies showing what their graduates are making as entry salaries.
22

jaxman

07/27/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

Hey Everybody,
Read Summerdog again. In 2 stark sentences he gave you the reality check.
The reason behind it is because of (a) the rep of the school, and more so (b) the network you build while you are 'sniffing butts.'
Summerdog speaks the truth. Read and heed. My last two high end employment contracts were never even advertised.
A recruiter in my 'school' network proposed me on speculation to an employer in both instances. Word of mouth only. The most recent employer created a position to hire me. Think about it. I cannot be the only one.
Best wishes for you all.
Jaxman
23

SDiva

07/30/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

I agree with many of these comments, but I'm beginning to realize that in this recession many employers are not looking for what school you graduated from or what degree you have. There are quite a few educated idiots and employers are aware of that. Employers are looking for motivated and self starters and people who really have common sense. Anyway I can speak on having an engineering job that paid exceptionally well for me right out of college, but I can truly say that I hated that job. It was very isolating and I changed occupations to sales where my initial salary was a decrease of 25K, but the sales job was so much more fulfilling and I recouped that 25K in no time because I loved my job.

So word to the wise if you are only getting a job for the money it "might" pay you then think again because you want to have a great career that pays well not a well paying job...there is a big difference and it gets old really quick.
Smile it is time to get up and go to work;-)
24

yalta2

08/10/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

This just proves that our society does not put enough value on educators, arts or religion. Money talks it seems and I find it dissappointing. From a long term value perspective, should a teacher really make less money than a stock broker? Teachers are our children's futures and until their pay matches their long term value, many children will continue to test low and lose hope.
25

minervaAlyce

08/25/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

While I think it's sad that teenagers seem to be increasingly
choosing careers based on earnings capacity -- i.e. just look at
how popular the business major has become -- it's also
understandable why it's happening. I'm second guessing why I
majored in history!
26

Jey.C

09/25/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

yes... Thats rit.. this may show light to other courses n colleges.
27

LEGV13

10/01/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

To Vampirekwe...I totally agree with you, and I am not a teacher, nor do I have children, not that that should matter. The only condition is that the teachers have to be evaluated every so often to make sure they are actually teaching the students, and more importantly, that the student is actually learning.

I'm looping in police and fireman also as groups that should be highly compensated. Thank you.
28

newty74

10/19/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

some how your data missed pilots.

It takes several years of experience usually before you can
even find an airline job...and the average starting salaries @ an
airline is 20,000.
29

Cubatraveler

11/15/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

Not all engineering degrees are so lucrative. Some are impossible to get in or to keep without friends or relatives in the right place. I graduated in Metallurgical Engineering in 1979, was terminated from a job in August after 20 years and now find that I can't even get an interview. Must be age related (53) as no one hires people my age but expects them to go and be "consultants" or "contractors". Looking forward to my first job as a bartender/shuttle bus driver while a bankruptcy court deals with my debts. Thank you very much for my great vaunted university engineering degree!
30

cyberbuck84

12/02/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

While I come from a family of educators, I fail to understand why teachers are singled out as professionals who justify a higher salary because of their influence on children or the demands of their job. My job does not afford me 3 months off per year, 2 weeks for Christmas, a week for Easter, a top notch health plan, automatically funded retirement or an 8-hour day, for that matter. Nor does it promise me that if I don't always feel like contributing 110% I will still keep my job (tenure).

Further, I feel that teachers do not represent a child's future. A family (even a single parent, as I had) who takes responsibility is the appropriate vehicle to a child's future. Teachers have a role certainly, but it is not the role of benefactor, as it is preached to be. I know this will offend some, but really people. Is any single occupation in our society that important? Are we doing ourselves a favor by espousing this view? All it has done for my family of educators is make them feel justified in their oftentimes bad behavior and create a martyrdom that seems ridiculous to the rest of us. Enough!
31

Valve

12/02/09 | Reported as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

sanitary butterfly valves
sanitary ball valves
santiary check valves
sanitary butterfly valve
sanitary ball valve
santiary check valve
32

fishwife09

12/09/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

This is interesting and, of course, accurate. I just wished my nieces would have seen this. They wouldn't, of course, listen to me. They majored in history, education and have low-paying jobs.

I am currently a retired physician who is working as a pharmaceutical executive.

I worked in marketing at a Fortune 500 company before med school which, in reality, prepared me for my profession of more than 20 yrs(doctor) and my current profession.

Being a science, math or engineering major is always great. Why? because these courses of study teach analysis and thinking, necessary for both work and life. Critical thinking and problem solving are two skills most necessary for success in any field. Also the willingness to work hard and "obsess" over work are other traits necessary for completion of science degrees. They are also necessary in order to become an efficient employee in business.

Although I believe that youngsters should pursue their real passions in life, I also believe in pragmatism. If your'e passionate about social work and education, then one should hopefully not be equally passionate about BMWs, ***** bags, high end NY restaurants
33

clarkm

12/11/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

cyberbuck84; well said!
34

ConservativeMBA

12/13/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

As far as comments go on education pay, it's the state paying them, so they shouldn't be making a ton. Private schools pay their teachers much more. Also, this is UNDERGRAD ONLY. It doesn't take into account the high number of teachers who are going back or who have gone back for masters and doctoral degrees. Those numbers apply only to public educators with a bachelor's degree.

MBA here, not sure if I'll start at 35k, too, but my econ prof in my undergrad said we should be making 60k straight out of college with the prestige at our school. That was before the poor economy, though.
35

Three and two

12/15/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

My son graduates next year with a double major in history/econ. In the back of his car, I found a hand written cardboard sign which reads "liberal arts degree, will think for beer."

He said it was for a party but it could be his fate.
36

PB149

12/22/09 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

It is not possible to argue what teachers "should" be paid, particularly in the public sector. It is also not relevant to compare salaries in public education to salaries of private sector engineers.

For teachers in public sector, salary levels are negotiated and set by committee. The town/city has tax dollars to be distributed for all public services - roads, water, police, fire, education, etc. Because there is a finite amount of money (until and unless, taxes are raised), the employer [ the town/city] cannot simply decide to raise teachers' salaries. It is a zero sum game. If teachers' salaries go up, something else must go down. For anyone believing teachers "should" be paid more, you need to pay more taxes to the town for that purpose. Very simple but very difficult to implement.

Private sector salaries are not subject to the same limitations. There is no finite sum of money to be distributed. A company pays high(er) salaries in the belief that hiring the best will make the company more successful. That is, their "investment" in highly compensated paid staff will create more earnings/profit for the company.

There is a parallel in education: private schools at any level, including undergrad and postgrad programs. Private schools are competing for students. The quality of a school's faculty is a differentiating factor. As a result, private schools pay high salaries to attract topnotch educators in order to attract more customers [students]. The schools are making the same kind of investment as any manufacturer or service provider.

Public school systems are not competing; their customers (students) are delivered to them. They do not have to attract students (and their money) to survive and prosper. The only reasonable comparison is to other public school systems. If another town is more successful in educating their students, is compensation a contributing factor? [ Measuring success is an entirely different can of worms... ] However, in general, towns compensating teachers at higher levels will, over time, attract better teachers (economics 101).

Last, let's keep in mind some other basic economics. For two open positions, one in engineering, the other in teaching, how many qualified people apply? From what I read, open teaching positions are flooded with applicants. These applicants are fully aware of the compensation. It would be a difficult sell to convince the townspeople to pay higher salaries when so many people are qualified and willing to work for the posted salary.

The hiring manager for the engineering position has the opposite problem. There are simply fewer interesting and qualified applicants. If s/he cannot attract enough qualified applicants, s/he has but one option - raise the salary to the point where people start showing up.

If policemen, firemen, teachers, and other public sectors employees were not willing to work for the compensation advertised by cities and towns, salaries would go up. (How else to attract applicants?). The plain fact is there is a surplus of applicants willing to work for the posted salaries of public sector positions. End of story, end of post.
37

Manabozho

12/24/09 | Report as spam

Hidden gender pay-equity lesson?

There's little doubt that the professions, at the lowest-paid end of the pay spectrum, nevertheless continue to disproportionately attract women. However, the implication--oversupply of labor?then routinely gets recast as a "pay inequity problem." Among lots of the usual suspects, White House presidential adviser Valerie Jarrett is busy working this story line on the Sunday morning panels and talk shows.

This rhetoric would flunk a sophomore logic class. First, you make wide-eyed, idealistic assertions about how people should follow their bliss, not just consider pay, etc. when choosing a career. Then, when the fields that absorb fine arts, drama and art-history majors are routinely overcrowded, because more people are following their hearts than the market can absorb, you quick-run around to the other side of the argument, and say that some force (government, usually) should redress the difference, so that those people are protected from the laws of supply and demand.

It?s amazing how often the following step in the argument is that the salary increases should be paid for from taxes on those in the private sector, who must live by the laws of supply and demand.

Consider a non-gender example, to make the point. How happy are most parents when a teenager seems hell-bent on being a professional musician, because s / he's earned some money thru high school and college playing music? There's a horrible oversupply of musicians?way more people who want to play music (music they choose, usually) and get paid for it than there are people who are willing to pay for big cover charges and expensive drinks, for the privilege of hearing an unknown group of local players.

Lots of people easily agree that someone who?s determined to be a musician is asking for trouble, but won't come to the same obvious conclusion when yet another female college student insists on further crowding the gender-ghettos of the workplace? Just doesn't seem consistent somehow.

BTW, though I am an English major undergrad with an anthropology MA, I spent my entire career in technology research and development. Retired now, I also play music--because now I can afford to, and don't need to make money doing it. I have no regrets. I had a fine old career, mostly because when I was a twenty-something, I didn?t insist that the world should bend to my personal criteria. I went where the work was, and made the best of it.

I heartily recommend the same approach. It leads to happier careers for more people, relieves the oversupply of labor in the so-called satisfying jobs, and if continued long enough, eventually raises teachers? salaries, when the supply and demand get into a better balance!
38

Tom_Ga

01/08/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

I cannot find any evidence demonstrating that educators are
underpaid. If anything, they are paid commensurately with
the demand for their skills. The only rational explanation is
that since most teachers are public employees, they and
their unions are simply attempting to assert political pressure
upon the school boards which set their salaries.

If one desires to make more money than a teacher's salary, if
that's what's important, go into a field other than primary
education, one in which a premium is offered due to demand
for specialization or scarcity of practitioners. But don't cry
that teachers do not make enough when it is they who freely
agree to accept the salaries and pay scales offered by the
school systems. If they do not like the pay, quit, and do
something else.
39

clarissei

01/08/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

You could become and automotive technician and start at about 31k and at mid career pull about 55-60k and be really tired at the end of the day due to the advent of the popularity of large wheel and tire combinations on daily driven trucks. Love of life still trumps all else, do what you feel is right for you, and choose your stepping stones wisely.
40

clarissei

01/08/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

Myself I hope to one day discipline myself enough to learn music to a collegiate level and study classical guitar music, and music related topics altogether. Select times of eve when the notes float, and the rhymes intertwine. Until then with the concentration of the modern buisness model on efficiency of process, and not the actual tolerances of the workers themselves reigning in here, it is no fun being a test subject for weapons of mass efficiency. There is only joy in the little things, only peace in the heart, only pain in appendages, pardon me whilest I shart!
41

Sunny Sun

01/23/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

I don't think teachers should be paid more. My daughter often
told me that some of their teachers even just show up to use
projector to teach and don't explain much and waste their time
to print handouts in class and let students to self study.
42

mariamvca

01/27/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

My aplaude to clarkm!
I have a business degree and making the lowest pay in the job market and yet paying thousands of dollars to send my son to a private school because the public school in my neighborhood has the lowest score in the United State. Moreover, the teacher and the school psychiatrist wanted my son to take drugs because he wouldn't do well in a Spanish/English immersion program.
Public school teachers are making more money and getting greater benefits than I do and I have to scramble for tuition so that my child can have a good education.
43

chaoslegion

02/02/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

supply and demand,

There are 24 people in my major, which is Actuarial
Science.
We go to job fairs where there are always more businesses
looking to hire than there are students
There are hundreds in the education major at my college,
most of which are elementary edu.
My college has around 10000 students.

I wonder who will get paid more...
44

Yani u

02/05/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

Well, just do what u love. Money isnt all.
Also do what u are good at. I hated arts and loved science . I am a doctor today becos of that. I love what I do and making money too. So love what u do , quit if u dont, stop complaining bcos the choice is yours.
45

desertpatio

02/20/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

Great comments, but having no degree and 2 of 4 children currently in the panic phase of there last year and a half of college, coming home when they can afford too? Did we get that I couldn't find under score button. My Wife and I have always pushed the importance of education we are both JFK babies raised by post depression era parents one income 8th grade diploma, and inturned field studies at John Deere U and there studies went way beyond this and even abroad (Korea) VFW alumni? Believe me we heard it. anyhow my point is that although the money thing should not be ignored especially when they finally push out (yes like birth) wipe the stuff off there foreheads grab a newspaper glance at the economic doom in any section.So sip that last cup of over priced Joe and try and find that six fig entry level dream job that every collage grad and the recent 10% of experienced well qualified unemployed workers are all hunting! yes like the real thing but no guide or rules I often compare corporate America like the Mad Max thrillers, same basic rules. That said tell'em debt to income will determine there career path, don't spin your wheels chasing that pie in the sky jobs. Remember your hunting... go where the mob isn't. Be the first one out every morning and get in the back door what every it takes. target small firms donate your time if necessary? I once had a guy walk on a large construction site and it was obvious he had a string of bad luck, He asked are you the supt. I almost turned and walked off but before I could he said "hey I won't waste your time so if you need a carpenter i will start at any time and I think you will see by the end of the day what I'm worth and if you feel I wasted your time Pay me nothing for the day all I ask is be upfront, no disrespect but you would then be wasting my time,agreed? I hired him.
46

Gene Cooper

02/23/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

i just wanna go to collage and change my life and im 18 im from shelton wa and i wanna gradate and find a good job... so can you help me and i wanna learn spanish too
47

BillGNYC

03/03/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

Reality check: liberal arts and science majors dominate the high paying American professions: law, medicine, and business.
Undergraduate education should emphasize the ability to think, read, write, and analyze complex issues. Many undergrad programs like teaching and business degrees do not emphasize these essential skills. Excellent writing and analytical skills are necessary to compete in graduate schools which are the real vocational layer for American higher education and prepare a student for a substantive entry level job.
48

BillGNYC

03/03/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

Correction: "Private schools pay their teachers much more." Not true. Private schools pay experienced teachers and administrators much less than public schools.
49

PB149

03/04/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

Re prior "correction". This statement is far too broad to be accepted as fact.

Parochial schools? Yes, they pay less. Secular private schools? No, they don't always pay less. The story is a bit more interesting a blanket statement. Check this link as a start... http://privateschool.about.com/od/salaries/qt/salaries.htm
50

ewromero

03/05/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

All I can say is, jobs are about money, careers are about passion.

I am going to pursue something that I am passionate about, the money will usually follow...at least enough to live a comfortable and meaningful life.
51

BillGNYC

03/05/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

My direct sources include a prestigious NJ based boarding school where I once taught, a boys prep school where my son attended, three elite private schools in NYC and comparisons between NJ public and NYC public schools published salaries. Mayor Bloomberg's reforms of education in NYC have shifted the salary competition in favor of public administrators which attracts talented people from other fields as well.

Where there are direct competition between private schools is for those experienced teachers of courses (usually AP) which make visible differences in college acceptances, for this talent you will see a spike in salaries. But this competition for talent doesn't exist for private elementary, middle, and most private high school teachers and administrators.

In higher ed this disparity exists as well. A director of admissions at a public community college in a suburban district makes a much higher salary more than a comparable position at an elite private university 30 miles away. This is reality.
52

PB149

03/09/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

I am merely noting there are a number of considerations in making direct comparisons between private and public schools, and even between private schools. For example, how can one make valid comparisons when boarding schools offset lower salaries with faculty compensation packages including housing, meals, tuition remission for children and low interest loans? These are some big numbers.

The spectrum of differences makes it nearly impossible, (without some sort of data normalization) to simply declare, "Private schools pay experienced teachers and administrators much less than public schools.standalone statement, this is misleading at best.

In what "reality" do the Deans of Admissions at public community colleges command "a much higher salary" than the Admission Deans at elite private universities?

The Deans of Admissions at the College of the Holy Cross, Harvard, Boston University, Boston College, and Wellesley College are all compensated less than Berkshire Community College, Holyoke Community College, Mass Bay Community College, or Mt. Wachusett Community College???

Admissions Directors at Princeton, Bryn Mawr, Seton Hall, Bucknell, Swarthmore< are all compensated less than Raritan Valley Community College, Mercer County Community College, Middlesex Community College, Butler County Community College, Community College of Phliadelphia, or Lackawanna Community College??

Really? Am I the only person finding this statement to be highly questionable? Where is the evidence? How many Deans of Admissions at these private universities are making the jump to community college for their "much higher" salaries?

53

PB149

03/09/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

I am merely noting there are a number of considerations in making direct comparisons between private and public schools, and even between private schools. For example, how can one make valid comparisons when boarding schools offset lower salaries with faculty compensation packages including housing, meals, tuition remission for children and low interest loans? These are some big numbers.

The spectrum of differences makes it nearly impossible, (without some sort of data normalization) to simply declare, "Private schools pay experienced teachers and administrators much less than public schools." As a standalone statement, this is misleading at best.

In what "reality" do the Deans of Admissions at public community colleges command "a much higher salary" than the Admission Deans at elite private universities?

The Deans of Admissions at the College of the Holy Cross, Harvard, Boston University, Boston College, and Wellesley College are all compensated less than Berkshire Community College, Holyoke Community College, Mass Bay Community College, or Mt. Wachusett Community College???

Admissions Directors at Princeton, Bryn Mawr, Seton Hall, Bucknell, Swarthmore< are all compensated less than Raritan Valley Community College, Mercer County Community College, Middlesex Community College, Butler County Community College, Community College of Phliadelphia, or Lackawanna Community College??

Really? Am I the only person finding this statement to be highly questionable? Where is the evidence? How many Deans of Admissions at these private universities are making the jump to community college for their "much higher" salaries?

54

BillGNYC

03/10/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

The Directors of Admissions at NYU and Columbia U receive considerably lower annual salaries than Nassau Community College and Kingsboro Community College in Brooklyn in particular. The community college's salary ranges are public knowledge and the NYU and Columbia directors I know personally and they roll their eyes when they see the postings in the NY Times.

The more prestigious the college, the less they feel they have to pay -- Harvard U. is notoriously cheap on salaries. Again, I have friends and family who work there.

Public community colleges clearly operate in the political arena and reflect the influences of local politics and have substantial salaries which reflect that fact.

Think Nassau Community College...

The reason many directors at elite colleges stay is to work up the ladder to better paying positions in administration or to move to other colleges who want their unique experiences. Moving from Bryn Mawr to Mercer Community College for the higher salary alone is not the general career direction college administrators would take.

But if you have four kids...the higher salaries could make a difference. At my son's private school every teacher who left in the last 3 years went to a better paying position at a public high school. They were young men with young families and needed the income and better benefits.

These aren't perceptions -- these are facts.

55

Manabozho

03/11/10 | Report as spam

An old pay principle, rediscovered

As head of HR for 20 years in an S&P pharma company, I
can attest that it's pure folklore that the "best" institutions
have the highest pay. Instead, salaries follow, roughly, an
optimization curve.

Pay is one big component of the overall desirability of an
employer. The bigger and better the other factors, the
more recruits are willing to come to work for lower salaries.

Take chemical engineers, for example. If you are a Silicon
Valley biotech startup with stock options and a potential
blockbuster product or two in development, you can likely
pay less than an oil company who wants the young grad to
go straight to a work-camp situation somewhere in the
Middle East, to solve big petrochemical problems.

Similarly, the market forces the less desirable educational
institutions to make up for their obscurity, lack of perceived
excellence, or less-interesting work content, with cash.

In another example: during the Joe Montana / Bill Walsh
years, when the San Francisco 49ers were winning
superbowls and filling stadiums, their payroll ranked
resoundingly in the middle of the pack. Who wouldn't come
to play for the Niners back then? As their rep and
performance sank, they had to pay more than a team with
better prospects.

(This pattern doesn't seem to apply to the New York
Yankees. Whatever their business paradigm is, it defies
economics, truth, beauty, justice, wisdom, AND reverse-
common-sense.)

56

cecewes

05/18/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

If you are saying money doesn't mean anything/ or as much... Delete your comment. The title is The Best and Worst College Degrees by SALARY, so that's means we're talking money .It's redundant to say "Money doesn?t anything or you work your low paying job for the passion". It's off subject, since no one asked...

57

adrianemma

05/26/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

I always told people I was majoring in poor. Now it is official. I majored in elementary education and social work. I worked as a director of a small local non-profit and for a few years and now is a 5th grade teacher (5years). I helped develop affordable housing for 40 families and teach 100+ children. I loved both jobs and now I am spending the summer with my two children. We get by just find and are very happy.

58

neutrina

06/09/10 | Report as spam

Following your Passion is Not Always Ideal

There are districts here in Texas that are hiring teachers at an entry level salary of $49K (no experience) plus stipends and bonuses for "critical needs" areas (to far from where i live).
While many students coming out of college may think salary is awesome, what they don't realize is that the salary of a teacher over a career lifetime tends to "crawl" in most parts of this country.
Eventhough some teachers make make an entry level salary of $49k, 10 years later she may only be making $52k. When compared to someone in another career field, say Nursing or Business, a graduate may enter at $38k-40K (with little to no experience) but within 10 years winds up making upwards of $70k, it becomes obvious why some careers are better suited to people who don't mind "scraping by" with their families in exchange for pursuing their passion.
I taught for 3 years. My entry level salary was $43k and my exit salary was $44, 200 (with a district wide raise).
Though i am passionate about teaching, I am also a realist.
I have a family to feed and given the rapid rise in inflation and cost of goods in these tough economic times, i have to consider a better paying alternative.

59

neutrina

06/09/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

One more thing. Those that think that the general public respects teachers are sadly mistaken. In my short three years of teaching i discovered that i earned a greater level of respect from the general public when i worked as an Executive Secretary.
People just "act" as though teaching is a respectable career when you mention what you do for a living, because it is socially unacceptable to publicly trash a teacher.
The reality--you put "teaching" on your resume when entering the business world and you will not be taken seriously.
Oftentimes, hiring managers believe that former teachers are only capable of handling sniffling kids and incapable of working on projects with adults in the "real world".

60

neutrina

06/09/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

Wow, cyberbuck84, i really would have to question your family of "educators".
For starters, most teachers in this country work much longer hours than 8 hrs a day. The 8hr day is a myth perpetuated by people like yourself.
When i taught i worked an average of 70-80hrs a week (7days). That is no misprint. Most teachers i knew worked at least 55hrs a week. And if you taught Special Ed and a worked also as a CaseManager your hrs were anywhere from 70-80hrs depending on level of paperwork for that week. For the record, anything above 40 hrs is UNPAID.

Second, all those "holidays off" you speak of, well those days are reserved mostly for lesson planning, professional development, and research. At least for those that are competent, highly qualified educators.

Third, "Tenure" is reserved for teachers that have at least 3-7 years within the same district. It varies from district to district. A very large number of teachers in this country don't have tenure. Moreover, districts are making it increasingly difficult to get tenured. Which means that your yearly contract does not have to get "renewed", nor does the district have to show just cause as to why they are not renewing your contract. If you switch from one district to another, the countdown to tenure starts all over again.

Fourth, i don't know about your family of "educators", but my summers were spent in professional development courses and working part time to make $$$. As a single parent of two boys and plenty of bills (including student loans) $43k does not go very far.
Finally, as far as that retirement you speak of, our pensions (401k based) took a hit just like others did.
There are 30 year veterans i worked with that could not retire even though they desperately wanted to. There simply is not enough money in their pensions to support them well into their old age. By the way, most teachers don't retire at 50years old or after just 10 years of teaching!

"While I come from a family of educators, I fail to understand why teachers are singled out as professionals who justify a higher salary because of their influence on children or the demands of their job. My job does not afford me 3 months off per year, 2 weeks for Christmas, a week for Easter, a top notch health plan, automatically funded retirement or an 8-hour day, for that matter. Nor does it promise me that if I don't always feel like contributing 110% I will still keep my job (tenure)."

61

lnkpcrec

06/12/10 | Report as spam

Picture Recovery

I am not agreeing with your blog because, teachers at colleges and universities pass their knowledge and expertise on to the next generation of bankers, painters, chemists, and even teachers. They help students to think critically as well as imaginatively; provide practical training; and shape their students' goals, careers, and lives. So I think salary is not playing a big role by either best or worst college.

62

lnkpcrec

06/12/10 | Report as spam

Picture Restore

I am not agreeing with your blog because, teachers at colleges and universities pass their knowledge and expertise on to the next generation of bankers, painters, chemists, and even teachers. They help students to think critically as well as imaginatively; provide practical training; and shape their students' goals, careers, and lives. So I think salary is not playing a big role by either best or worst college.
http://www.picrecovery.com

63

poniatowskir

06/17/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

As a teacher of 22 years and still going, I can honestly say that education careers are the best kept secrets in the US. Granted, we have to put up with some silly government programs, funding issues and a few students who do their best never to learn a thing (fail on purpose, would rather be in the work force... doing...???). However, all in all, working with students is great and almost every teacher has a true passion for their subject. Summers off is nice, but most teachers work a second job or go to school to keep current and licensed.
The biggest threat to this industry right now is standardized testing tied to funding. This forces districts to teach to the test and deny other programs to students, which teach much more than the questions on the test. It's sad, but true.
@ Neutrina, we don't get three months off. Nor do we get two weeks at Christmas or a week at Easter. If you want to see this type of thing, look at the universities, not the public schools. Nobody can work 110%, it's physically impossible. Let's be precise with our information please.

64

poniatowskir

06/17/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

As a teacher of 22 years and still going, I can honestly say that education careers are the best kept secrets in the US. Granted, we have to put up with some silly government programs, funding issues and a few students who do their best never to learn a thing (fail on purpose, would rather be in the work force... doing...???). However, all in all, working with students is great and almost every teacher has a true passion for their subject. Summers off is nice, but most teachers work a second job or go to school to keep current and licensed.
The biggest threat to this industry right now is standardized testing tied to funding. This forces districts to teach to the test and deny other programs to students, which teach much more than the questions on the test. It's sad, but true.
@ Neutrina, we don't get three months off. Nor do we get two weeks at Christmas or a week at Easter. 99% of teachers, including myself, work more than 8 hours a day. We're not 'off' in the summer, we're unemployed without access to unemployment. Our contracts run the duration of the school year, not beyond. Nobody can work 110%, it's physically impossible. Let's be precise with our information please. We do have excellent health and retirement programs. If your career doesn't offer these, don't blame the teachers for your problems.

65

corwin78

06/29/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

My degree in electrical engineering was a pretty bad choice.

After I graduated in 2002, I couldn't find any way into the field and I became chronically unemployed.

The government in my country (USA) has been determined for many years to depress wages in the engineering sector by allowing companies to hire "temporary guest workers" from abroad to fill domestic jobs.

Temporary guest workers are ineligible for US citizenship based on their stay and must return to their own countries. They are frequently abused and underpaid when they are in the USA, which could eventually spur relationship problems between the USA and other countries. At best, the lack of a citizenship option precludes the formation of a lasting relationship between the guest worker and the nation.

When the workers return home, the exported knowledge and experience benefits the manufacturing sector of the other country, and so the USA becomes less competitive in the world market for finished goods.

Have I sold any Americans on an engineering degree?

66

g.a.smith

06/30/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

Corwin78 - I'm a recruiter and I know first-hand how bad the job market has been. But things are really looking up now and hiring is increasing.

Oddly enough, (when asked) I've always advised students to go for an EE degree - it's practical, it's hands-on and it's theoretical - it involves every single type of motor or drive or PLC or anything that "runs". You can specialize in just about anything, including computers. And it's been my experience that it pays more than any other 4-year degree.
Admitted, it's difficult to get a job right out of college that pays well and offers a good future - but it's difficult for nearly ANY graduate, regardless of degree. That's why internships and co-op positions are SO important - they are practical experience in the work environment. Many times companies will count that toward experience. If someone has, say, 3 summers of co-op experience, they'll count that as one year - and you should too.

I'm sorry you've had a hard time of it but I've wished MANY times for an entry-level EE with some co-op experience to present to a client. It's been my experience (25 years as a recruiter) that most entry-level engineers have such pie-in-the-sky ideas about salary levels, they will only consider $60K+ annual base for any position. Now THAT'S tough!

67

corwin78

06/30/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

At this point, I would not view any increase in hiring of engineers as any indication that it could be a secure career direction. The US government and its corporate society together have communicated how they view their engineers, and so even a new hiring spree could not renew my interest in being an engineer.

I did not spend the last eight years applying for jobs and refusing them because they would not pay a fortune. I have never received a job offer in engineering.

I returned to college to learn accountancy (without taking a new diploma) and have amassed a whopping 231 undergraduate college credits. I passed the CPA exam, and should soon be certified.

I met the state's education requirement, having the minimum amount of "business" coursework. I had to make two appeals to the board to persuade it that my statistics course taught by engineering professors was a "business" course.

I perceive that the engineering professions are given ALMOST no respect by the business community in the US, even if sometimes you can eke out just a little nod. If a degree in engineering is a mistake, I am grateful for the reprieve I was given.

What I prefer about accounting is that it is a service-based profession, which bodes a lot better within the kind of non-manufacturing economy that the US is developing. Accounting skills are more generalized than engineering skills, so accountants rarely find themselves investing their careers in activities which nobody will perform in a year or so. Your typical organization will more likely hire an accountant than an engineer, and I would feel more secure working for an operation that is small and domestic instead of gargantuan and multinational.

I do not want to be bouncing from job to job to job as technologies and agendas change, especially because I loathe interviewing. I want to become a seasoned expert at something that I do, and have my clients or employers coming to me because I have been performing a great service for many years.

68

g.a.smith

07/01/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

Corwin78 - From where I sit, I see no evidence of the behavior of companies or hiring officials that you have experienced. Engineering has always been (in my humble opinion and years of experience) viewed as an honorable profession. But for the most part it does require highly analytical minds and a certain attitude, often called "cold", for one to be a success. For sure not everyone is cut out to be an engineer and I could tell you of lots of people who aren't cold or analytical in any way and are still successful engineers.

I'm so happy for you that you have found an alternate career route. With accounting you can go in any direction and that's a good thing.

I must add that I'm absolutely amazed you never had one single interview for an engineering position. There's a ton of openings out there - just look on any major job board - or even the lesser known industry-specific job board - and the jobs boards of large companies.

Alcoa has 66 engineering positions open in the US that are advertised on their website. General Electric has 1,031 engineering jobs on their website. General Mills has 32 engineer positions listed. Toyota has 470 engineering jobs open.

Etc., etc.

69

mkeating3

07/13/10 | Reported as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

I love when I read these articles about degrees and what the starting salary is "supposed" to be. I graduated a year ago, live in San Diego, and I don't know one person (besides an engineer) who is making that salary. The days of walking out of college to an almost guaranteed 40k a year are gone....for now.

70

mkeating3

07/13/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

I love when I come across articles that talk about starting salaries. I believe these salaries are inflated and here is my reasoning. I am a recent graduate, live in San Diego (super expensive), and don't know one person in any field besides engineering that is even making the salary of a social worker. I believe this is no doubt an impact of the recession and unemployment. Hopefully things will turn around because I sure know I'd be loving even 40K a year

I have compiled some helpful tips for job searching that worked for me. Check them our here:
http://rentersreports.com/2010/06/07/get-an-interview-guaranteed/

71

kvyankee

07/23/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

Liberal art degrees are worthless. They are easy majors in any school. Any monkey can pay 10k-30k a year, sit on a liberal arts lecture, and get a degree. That's why they get paid less. Let's stop sugar coating it everyone! America rewards hardwork and intelligence.
The US is slowly losing jobs to china and india because an overwhelming majority of young americans are wasting their time and money on these majors.

72

The College Solution

07/24/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

Kvyankee,

I must seriously disagree with you. There are plenty of liberal arts degrees that are extremely difficult. For instance, I have never heard anyone say that majoring in chemistry, physics or mathematics (all liberal arts) is easy.

Lynn O'Shaughnessy

73

BillGNYC

07/24/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

The assesment that liberal arts degrees are worthless is absolute nonsense. The Ivies graduate liberal arts degrees and their graduates lead American business, education, and the professions. Every president since Jefferson except for engineers Hoover and Carter studied liberal arts. Liberal arts teaches people to think, analyze and write which is a necessary prerequisite for the high paying professions: medicine, law, and business. Engineering is also important but many American students lack the training in the sciences to compete there and end up in marginal undergraduate programs in business. Parents need to take the football away from their sons and direct them to study real mathematics, which is an important part of a liberal arts education.

74

Manabozho

07/25/10 | Report as spam

I'm a liberal arts guy

I retired as senior vice president in a medical research and development company, capping a career entirely in technology R&D. The chief scientist at our very successful S&P 500 company was an English undergrad, (as was the recently retired CEO of Florida East Coast Railroad, just to name a couple close friends.) We were all English majors as undergrads. The chief scientist's Harvard MD and my advanced social science degree came later. With my undergrad education, I learned to read, write, talk and listen. If you think "everybody knows how to do that," then I suggest you revisit your own listening skills.

An English degree was never much help with first-out-of college jobs, and no degree is a difference maker when its market value has been diluted by higher college graduation rates (40% or so nowadays?), weaker schools awarding the "same" degree, etc.

But, communication and analytical skills can provide underpinning for a wide range of careers. I love engineers, mathematicians, chemists. The ones who have great careers tend to have 1) broad analytical and communication skills--and ambition; or 2) superior insight into physical nature.

If you want to have an easier first-job search, a technical degree may provide that. But if you want to be a person who adds value to an organization by your ability to get a superior grasp of the organization's problems, and to have influence in the development and implementation of solutions--and you prefer to study liberal arts--you can still have a fine career. The degree is only one of the tools at your disposal, and a liberal arts degree can strengthen the tools you will acquire later.

75

lraufman@...

07/25/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

I was really impressed with # 74 "Manabozho's " comprehensive insight into the importance of a liberal arts education.

If you did not notice, Manabozho was a V,P. and in a position to hire the job applicants.

Thank you for giving the "hiring" needs point of view about the value of a liberal arts education.

76

Manabozho

07/26/10 | Report as spam

Research method fails to find top liberal arts grads?

One further question occurred to me in this context. If the starting-salary research method simply looked for places that advertise for liberal arts degrees, and recorded the salaries, it may produce a wildly inaccurate picture of how liberal arts grads do as a group (I'll stipulate that "liberal arts" has a definition problem as well.)

What I would be interested to see is the mid-career salaries of liberal arts graduates who did NOT go to work in academia or government.

77

corwin78

07/29/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

Jobs didn't go to China and India because too many Americans studied liberal arts.

They went to China and India because of free trade. That is the sole reason why they are gone.

When people such as myself earn American engineering degrees and then CANNOT become employed in America's rotted-out manufacturing sector, the next generation younger than me has less incentive to study sciences in college.

If America's politicians were working in the interest of the public, there would be no H-1B visas. There would be strict control and levying of tariffs on imports.

The economy which America has right now is its only "benefit" from free trade. America needs to start a trade war and wage it to win.

The trouble is, America needed to do that a good while back. If this trade war starts today, Americans might start dying of starvation and exposure. Because the country sure isn't providing for itself materially anymore.

78

JimMaginnis

07/29/10 | Report as spam

RE: Jobs go to China and India because Americans learn less

The facts are...

American SAT scores exhibited an unbroken decline from 1963 to 1982 (116,000 students scored over 600 on the verbal SAT in 1972 but only 71,000 scored that high ten years later) with SAT scores "recentered" in 1995 due to the lowering scores - the result: the top engineering school I went to (RPI) has seen over a 100 point drop in the average SAT Math scores of entering students.

Most popular Reader in 1862 is considered too hard for today?s kids (while a popular 1920 Reader introduced 345 words, it is common for today?s to only intro 53 new words). Plus, in no state do even half of 8th graders read at grade level (average is 28%).

For every 100 American 9th graders, only 18 graduate with a 2-4 degree college by age 25. This number is 96 students for 100 Japanese 9th graders, who graduate with what Americans only get after 2 years of college (30% of American college freshmen must go into remedial courses for material they were expected to learn in high school but weren't taught).

Japanese teachers at all levels are better prepared in mathematics and their math instruction is far more sophisticated.

Corcoran, Evans, and Schwab found half of new teachers graduating in 1962-1966 scored on exams above the 80th percentile while only 10% of those that graduated in 1984-1985 scored above the 80th percentile. Today, two-thirds of new teachers come from the bottom third and cannot pass ETS Math test or Mass. Educator Certification exams. I was concerned about the spelling and grammar exams for becoming a college instructor being I considered myself to be an illiterate engineer. I averaged a 92, the other technology applicants taking the test with me averaged an 85 while the Masters in Education all currently teaching in K-12 schools averaged a 35 (they would have been considered too illiterate to be an engineer but were listed as bright when considered against other English majors and so were all hired).

We can easily do twice the education for half the money, because that?s what we did 50 years ago (and Marva Collins was doing it up to 2008 in South Chicago).

?Teachers are not equipped with the skills and knowledge they need to excel.? - Louis V. Gerstner Jr. (was CEO of IBM until 2002 and is now Chairman of the Carlyle Group)

Before the IT burst, most green cards were for engineers and programmers (who could actually be here without one), but afterward, 60,000 green cards went unused and permanently withdrawn because such middle class jobs were being so completely outsourced. I have a senior programmer friend who recently looked for employment for 6 months and the only job he could find was teaching in India. We are giving away our children's future when we focus on customer satisfaction for parents who don't complain when their kids can't read but only when their kids are getting poor grades. The most popular degree in America is also the most useless, a BS in psychology.

We know it's not the children's fault when in Marva Collins South Chicago school?s first year all 13 learning disabled, low IQ children (labeled as ?unable to read?) tested as advancing five years, when illiterate Fourth graders taught by Ron Clark in Harlem read at above grade in but three months, when Bronx school children taught by David MacEnulty won the NYC Chess Tournament (as well as 200 trophies in the top 5 in the nation) EVERY YEAR, and when High School students taught by Jaime Escalante in East LA (who was forced out of teaching) were more likely to graduate from Ivy League colleges than kids from Hollywood High.

?With this new generation and these new teachers, I don?t think [schools] are going to change too much.? - Dr. Jaime Escalante (America?s Greatest Teacher, Stand and Deliver)

?People still believe in the tradition of dedicated, self-sacrificing school teachers. They don?t know how the profession has changed? What was once the poor man?s burden has become everyone?s.? - Marva Collins (Marva Collins Story)

The fact is? the exodus of jobs abroad is not to utilize cheap labor but to employ a far more highly educated workforce.

This may have likely increased the reported salaries for engineers as the ones that were making lower and middle salaries have found their jobs outsourced (most of my alumni seem to now be in financial jobs). India has about the same number of engineers and China three times as many. They're bigger countries you say, then how does Japan have more engineers with only half the population. We're doing less research... now that IBM and others have become "service" companies there's less need for research. And so, the fastest growing job in America is sadly cashier.

79

madrn

07/29/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

Elementary teaching salaries should be adjusted to reflect that these teachers work part-time with months off for summer break, weeks off for winter/spring break. They make pretty good money for working essentially 8 months a year.

80

JimMaginnis

07/30/10 | Report as spam

RE: All teaching is part time

Dear Madrn, "Yea but" is my favorite word as it denotes total agreement as well as disagreement at the same time... and this is how I feel about your comment about teachers working part time. I personally know of many teachers who work many more hours than the norm and I know of many teachers that come in at 7am so they can leave by 3pm (and take nothing home with them). The problem is that these two people are generally paid the same... which is very discouraging for those making any real effort (would you want to work where you are never rewarded for a job well done). Most school districts in America pay solely on number of years IN THAT SCHOOL DISTRICT (so, if a teacher wants to leave to find a better paying job, his or her pay is cut in half... truely evil) and the number of seminars your attend (with no testing). For example, when Dr. Jaime Escalante (whose life was the source of the book America's Greatest Teacher and the movie Stand and Deliver) and many of his peers were pushed out of teaching (the principal who reassigned Jaime to asbestos removal said, ?They?re just disgruntled former employees, such backbiting only hurts the kids? and John Perex, VP of Teachers Union, said, ?Jaime didn?t get along with some of the teachers at his school. He pretty much was a loner? 1990) and in two years the number of students passing the AP Calculas exam dropped from 400 to 4 in just two years one of his proteges managed to reproduce much of Jaime's success at another school district in about three years. At that time, he was getting paid half of his salary working with Jaime. When he asked for any kind of salary boost due to the impact he was having, the school district and teacher's union just laughed in his face... and, of course, he quit for a real job. Teaching can either be the best paying easy job or the worst paying hard job. This is because of you, Madrn. I'm guessing you've never complained about any of this (like any parent would if any HS football team had such problems) - and anyone not part of the solution is the problem. So, before you complain about how hard teachers do or don't work, remember it's you that constantly year in and year out set them up to fail.

81

JimMaginnis

07/30/10 | Report as spam

RE: The best kept secret

Dear poniatowskir,

You said, "The biggest threat to this industry [teaching] right now is standardized testing tied to funding ... This forces districts to teach to the test."

No "yea but" for you, just no!

In 1980, 60 minutes did a story on a Fifth Grade girl in South Chicago who had just tested at the Tenth Grade level (using standardized federal tests). They later followed up on her when he graduated from the University of Virginia with a 4.0 GPA. Sounds like quit a gifted girl, but she in fact had an IQ of 75 and had been labeled by the school district as "learning disabled, unable to ever learn to read or write." By Second Grade, she didn't even know her alphabet, but three months later she was testing as advancing three grades and by the end of the school year had advanced five grades (again, on standardized testing). Was this a rare exceptional example. No, all of the other 12 kids with IQs of about 75 labeled by the public schools as "learning disabled, unable to ever learn to read or write" all advanced five grades... the same as the "normal" students (rent the movie The Marva Collin Story from Netflix).

The problem is not that there are students who don't want to learn, the problem is that you?re a lazy, unskilled, boring, bigoted teacher. Now, that's not me calling you a bigot, that William Ryan in his 1970 bestselling book, Blaming the Victim. This sad truth about you is actually one of the "best kept secrets in the US."

"People still believe in the tradition of dedicated, self-sacrificing school teachers. They don't know how the profession has changed. What was once the poor man?s burden has become everyone's." - Marva Collins

The highest award in education is the Malcom Baldrige Award in Excellence for Education (the only education award personally handed to recipients by the President of the United States). I'll bet a pay check you don't know how to win it.

82

corwin78

08/02/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

JimMaginnis:

Of course the population size of a country does not control the country's ability to profit from manufacturing.

That's not what I said. What I said is that a policy of FREE TRADE is the reason why manufacturing jobs are gone in the United States. That means that education is not the reason why the jobs are gone AND it means that national population is not the reason why the jobs are gone.

Japan is a great manufacturing power because of its geography. Japan looks very small on a globe but its population is half the size of the United States population. Japan has to trade with other countries to meet its need for goods, because there is very little land for a population the size of the Japanese to thrive from extraction and agriculture.

The Japanese population has become expert at design and manufacturing. Their government must not be asinine enough to damage the country's profits from manufacturing. For that reason, Japan is NOT a free trade country. The Japanese government is not welcoming to people who would enter Japan with shiploads of junk to sell there. Basically, if you sell it in Japan you make it in Japan (or you pay a high import tariff).

The visa program which I complained about is H-1B, not the green card program. An H-1B visa is for temporary employment, usually a few years. The temporary worker cannot become a United States citizen, and usually returns to his or her country of origin. Thus the program attracts people who will never have any long term attachment to the United States and will later transfer their skills gained in the United States to help build another economy.

It would be better for the United States if there were no H-1B program and that the foreign engineers have green cards. That way they could become citizens and keep their skills in the United States.

If primary and secondary education in the United States are not as good as they used to be, it is a shame. But statistics about how kids perform on tests do not take into account the fact that adults are capable of learning. Neither do statistics on the knowledge of primary and secondary teachers address this.

Engineering and science skills can only return to the United States when the incentive to develop them returns. They will not return while the United States has free trade and has wages higher than China and India.

83

JimMaginnis

08/02/10 | Report as spam

RE: FREE TRADE is the [only?] reason

Dear corwin78,

Please provide the statistics (or even personal experiences) concerning outsourcing decisions showing free trade is a problem so big it dwarfs all other economic issues. Considering our failing education (and, it is failing... compared to what was done 50 years ago as well as to other nations today), it is just silly to say, "education is not the reason why the jobs are gone"(IMHO, free trade is a much smaller problem).

Over the past twenty years, I have known mostly British engineers with no desire to stay in the U.S. when they retire. But, I don't know of any statistics showing the Brits are causing our economy to crumble. Could you help me with this as well?

It's nice to believe that adults are capable of learning after they completely failed to do so as kids. The reality is that people retiring today are the most literate generation in America (with no changing of this by any mass effort by younger adults). The reason may be American employers (second generation functional illiterates themselves) are not even looking for highly educated employees. For instance, a 1990 National Center on Education and Economy study stated "We found little evidence of a far-reaching desire for a more educated workforce." And, a 2006 Partnership for 21st Century Skills survey of HR said the 5 skills most crucial to workplace success are: professionalism/work ethic, teamwork, oral communications, ethics/social responsibility/honesty, reading comprehension (science and math were way down the list, and the paper authors beg academia to stop wasting time on such unneeded skills).

Let's say there's a ditch and one hose will fill it in 30 minutes and another hose will fill it in 45 minutes, how long will it take to fill using both hoses? A Japanese (or Chinese or Malaysian) Elementary child who hopes to graduate must answer this question in less than 60 seconds (while most Americans will not see such a question until College Algebra). This may be why a 30-something Japanese ditch digger is more likely able to answer this question than the average American who's just completed the college course. You're just being silly again if you think sending people who can't do math to engineering schools (again, the Math SATs at what was once the #1 engineering school in America has dropped over 100 points in 35 years) makes for good engineers (even if they can decide later in life that they should probably finally get around to learning some math). Moreover, I've never met an American Elementary School teacher who can answer the ditch/hose question above. In other words, basically no (or few) U.S. teachers have the math ability of an Asian ditch digger (or, if I was hiring ditch diggers, I would outsource if I could).

84

partystopper

08/09/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

I'll be honest, I don't agree wholeheartedly Lynn on what you say regarding degrees that pay you less. I mean yea, you might be right about the income figures, but the point I'm trying to make is, many of those lower wage salary jobs are more worthwhile to get then working at a retail store barely above minimum wage. I mean its sad to say but I got a B.S. in Structural Engineering from the University of California, San Diego recently, and I am resorting to working in the retail industry at a huge retail store. You want to know why, because there is no jobs in the civil / structural engineering field. I don't have the money to go do a masters program b/c I spent a lot of futile money for the degree I earned. And I was able to complete my degree in a highly competitive and lack of opportunity school. I regret I say that, but its all true. I haven not seen an ounce of opportunity majoring in the engineering field. Unless you have a zillion credentials and your GPA is infinitely high, you might have a chance. But as for now, forget majoring in a field that stresses u out and gives u no jobs in return. Realize that you better not be handicap, you can walk, and you can do labor, b/c if you decide to do a futile field such as structural engineering (where zero jobs exist), labor jobs are what you will w/o a doubt resort too. I'm currently in that state being a laborer / merchandiser in a retail venue. Everything I'm doing my in my job relates to nothing I learned from a complex / useless degree. All you need for this degree is a GED at most. An engineering degree is over the top and not worth it to have. Overall the point I'm stating is, labor jobs are where you will work if you get a futile degree such as Structural Engineering, undoubtedly.

85

JimMaginnis

08/09/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

I strongly agree with PartyStopper: My youngest (who is 11) is very interested in the LEGO competition activities including it's programming, science club, etc, but I've told him I believe (as an ex-engineer and ex-programmer, I have some experience with this) he needs to join the math club and work for only the top grades if he hopes to get a job in engineering or programming. It's primarily the middle class jobs that are being outsourced. I also just spoke to a friend entering college for programming and I advised him to quickly pick some science minor (such as electrical engineering) if he wants to find a job upon completing his degree ? I don?t believe just a computer science degree will cut it anymore (but for a life time of entry level pay). This has a big impact on average salaries for engineers and programmers. Moreover, since this situation is fairly recent - there are a larger number of older engineers / programmers, which additionally inflates their average salary. And, remember rarely do half of any profession make over the average salary (that would be the mean). It makes me angry that missinformation (such as suggested in articles like this one) may have set up PartyStopper for his career failure. I'm likewise angered that (I believe) most current student loans are currently for degrees unable to properly leverage the time being spent on an advanced education (just as PartyStopper reports). I believe (and the same opinion can be found in the recent PBS show College Inc) similar to how our economy has been hit by the recent home mortgage fiasco, we should expect a college loan colapse hitting our economy. Sadly, one can't get out of a federal college loan by declaring bankrupcy.

86

kathyvg19

08/12/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

The salary may not start great or end too great but is it consistent and in demand. We still need social works and teachers. Now you may make a six figure salary or start with $75,000 but will you have your job in 5 years in the question? So its just more than just meets the eye when we look at certain position. I read one article that paralegal studies was on the rise with great starting salaries then just read this one saying its in the worst...contradictory.

87

Jenn324

08/12/10 | Report as spam

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

I am currently pursuing a bachelors in social work and I can honestly say, I did not even look at salaries before deciding on my major. This career is about helping, empowering, supporting and generally bettering the lives of people who need it. im guessing most people who put social workers down, actually know nothing about the career or what any social work job entails. Social workers do not only work in government agencies and schools, but in hostpitals, non-profits, private practices, adoption agencies, and a vast amount of other industries and places.

tguarnera- your post was especially insulting. just because I would be entering a profession that does not pay 100k year does not mean that i would be unreliable or that I would not be able to pay off my school loans. It is disgusitng to base your opinion of someones reliability on the career they choose. Also, noone starts out making 100k a year so based on your qualifications should we really give anyone a school loan? And further more student loans are now routed through the government so if you have gripes about who is getting school loans and who is not, why dont you write to our secretary of treasury or your congress representative?

I will also disgree with the idea that social workers/educators merely picked their majors/careers because they were "easy". To even become a social work major i have to apply to a program and have a B average to be considered. I am also in the top 20% of my class at my university and many of the graduates who end up being a social worker are in the top percents of their classes because it is a requirement for grad school.
Also, let me ask this question, if you pick a career based solely on salary, while I did not, will you honestly be happy with your life 5, 10, 20 years down the road?

88

aero guy

08/13/10 | Report as spam

aeroguy

It seems that the main point here is that society is interested
in "progress" rather than "self reflection". I believe that both
are important and you cant bash one or the other.
Engineering and other technical fields show "progress" more
readily than other fields, and they sound pretty impressive
too, which is a big factor. Teaching and cultural studies
show more "self-reflection" which could be interpreted by
those who have a lot of money and power as less important.
I think it would help the education field in general to have
more teachers with real world experience in the craft they
teach. I had a physics teacher who was actually an engineer
and it made the experience wonderful for me. I ended up
doing much better than i would have.

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The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

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Hmmm... I wonder where B.A. in Rhetoric lands?

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

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RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

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RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

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RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

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RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

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RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

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RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

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RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

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RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

Hidden gender pay-equity lesson?

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RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

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RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

An old pay principle, rediscovered

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

Following your Passion is Not Always Ideal

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

Picture Recovery

Picture Restore

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RE: The Best and Worst College Degrees by Salary

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I'm a liberal arts guy

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Research method fails to find top liberal arts grads?

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RE: Jobs go to China and India because Americans learn less