Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

By Larry Swedroe | Oct 26, 2009 |

There are some investors who believe they can profit by finding patterns in historical stock prices or trading volume. These investors are attempting to profit from technical analysis. Kevin Grogan, my colleague at Buckingham Asset Management, reviewed some evidence on these strategies and found that these investors could probably find a more productive use for their time.

A recent study by finance professors at Massey University in New Zealand examined more than 5,000 technical trading rules to see if they added value. The authors found “no evidence that the profits to the technical trading rules we consider are greater than those that might be expected due to random data variation.”

The major contributions of this paper are:

  • The paper looks at more than 5,000 trading rules in 49 developed and emerging markets. Most other studies look at far fewer trading strategies and markets.
  • The paper uses statistical methods to adjust for data snooping bias.
  • The paper looks at both developed and emerging markets to determine whether technical trading rules add more value in less developed (or efficient) markets. The authors found that technical analysis may work better in emerging markets than developed markets, but it was “not a strong result.”

The paper’s findings certainly don’t cast technical analysis in a great light, especially when you also consider the findings from some other significant studies on technical analysis:

These studies show that looking for patterns and studying historical stock price charts is simply a waste of time. Your time would be much better spent on other endeavors.

 
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  •  
    1

    MarkWolfinger

    10/26/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    I have not read this (or the others you cited) paper, nor do I ever use technical analysis, but I say that this paper is very flawed.

    It studies technical trading rules and neglects the only factor that is important when determining if TA is a worthwhile endeavor: The skill and discipline of the trader.

    I know the rules of baseball and can play a game. But, I'm terrible. If you look at my results - i.e., statistics - you would find bad numbers. Does that mean that the average American cannot play baseball well?

    There's much more to TA than following one or more rules. There's the ability to time the markets over and above what TA provides - admittedly a skill held by few. There's also the discipline to size a trade properly. I'm sure there's nothing in the 'rules' that were followed that is concerned with 'size.' They probably size all trades the same.

    There's the discipline of good risk management which consists of more than following rules as to when a trade should be exited.

    My conclusion: It's not doing TA trading that's a waste of time, it's doing these studies that's the true waste.

    Regards,

  •  
    2

    Patrick Doyle

    10/26/09 | Report as spam

    Re: Is astrology a waste of time?

    Larry,

    I have not read this (or the others you cited) paper, nor do I ever use astrology, but I say that this paper is very flawed.

    It studies horoscope rules and neglects the only factor that is important when determining if astrology is a worthwhile endeavor: The skill and discipline of the astrologer. There's much more to divining the future than following one or more rules.

  •  
    3

    larry swedroe

    10/26/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Mark
    I have to disagree on two fronts. First, this is not the only study that shows that technical analysis tools don't work AFTER you take account of the costs. Often they appear to work because strategies have no costs; but implementing them does. So it is important to look at after costs results. For example, studies have show that active managers do pick stocks that outperform, but after accounting for expenses the results are negative alpha. And you only get to spend after cost returns (net), especially after taxes.

    Second, there are several studies on tactical asset allocation. And results are abysmal. One study on 100 pension plans found that not one single one benefited from the timing strategies. NOT ONE. Now given that they only hire managers with great track records and they pay much lower fees than individuals for the same service, what are the odds an individual investor is likely to succeed?

    Another study over a long period found that TAA funds produced, even before taxes, about half the return of the S&P 500 Index. HALF, BEFORE TAXES.

    Now is it possible someone can beat the market with TAA strategies? YES. But it is also possible to get rich buying lottery tickets but no one would take their retirement account to the lottery office.

    One might ask the simple question this way. One of the greatest investors of all time is Warren Buffett and people would probably agree that his advice should be heeded. He recommends individuals buy index funds and be a buy and hold investor, saying he makes more money snoring than when awake. And note, famous active investor Peter Lynch was always 100% in equities, avoiding market timing.

    The results of studies and the historical evidence clearly demonstate that TAA or any form of market timing is a loser's game. Now some might win, but the odds are greatly against do so, and thus it is simply not prudent to try. And remember, if some manager could beat the market, it is a rare skill. And since your capital is not rare but his/her skill is, the excess return should go to the scarce resource in the form of higher fees, not higher returns to you!!! Economics 101.

    Having said this, there is evidence of momentum in stock prices, and there are actually ways to utilize that information in ways that can improve returns. If I get the time I might write a post on this but the way to use the information is the following: avoid buying stocks you would otherwise buy (because they have entered the asset class you are invested in) but have negative momentum (wait until the negative momentum ceases). And if you are going to sell a stock (because it leaves the asset class) you can delay selling until the positive momentum ceases. That way you avoid trading costs, or delay them (reducing portfolio turnover) and benefit from the momentum (should momentum continue to exist).

    Best
    Larry

  •  
    4

    larry swedroe

    10/26/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Patrick
    The problem is this: The evidence on rules following strategies is they don't work. So that is step one. The second part is that you say it is not the rules that matter but how you implement them. So then we turn to the evidence on live funds that implement such strategies and the evidence there is dismal.

    Best wishes
    Larry

  •  
    5

    Patrick Doyle

    10/27/09 | Report as spam

    Astrology

    Ok, Larry, you win. I admit astrology doesn't work. wink

  •  
    6

    MarkWolfinger

    10/27/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Larry,

    I never suggested that TA was a good idea for traders/investors. Thus your reply ignores my point.

    I suggested that studying whether TA is a good idea is a waste of time.

  •  
    7

    larry swedroe

    10/27/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Mark

    Why would studying TAA be a waste of time. What if the results had found that it was a good strategy?

    In order to determine which is the strategy most likely to enable you to achieve your goals you need to determine what is not likely to enable you to do so. Here the evidence shows that simple rules don't work and it also shows that managers apply "art" along with the rules don't succeed with persistence either. So we know it is a "loser's game."

    Unfortunately, the conventional wisdom (believed by most people) is that TAA is the way to outperform. If that was not true than the majority of funds would be passively invested. So we know most people believe in the investment equivalent "fairy tales."

    My purpose in writing this "column" is to expose myths and subject them to the scrutiny of "scientific research." That way investors can make informed decisions rather than decisions based on marketing hype and hope.

    Best wishes
    Larry

  •  
    8

    RogerS@...

    10/27/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Larry,

    If technical analysis is such a waste of time maybe you can prove it to your readers by accepting my challenge.

    It's time to stop the debate and put your money where your mouth is. By the way, how did your investor fare last years? My investors had positive returns, and I use technical analysis.... humm... Of course, I need passive investors like you for my disciplines to work; so, Larry, I really appreciate your money and your high risk approach. Keep spreading it around.

    Oh, don't forget to accept my challenge. I'm waiting by the phone!
    ---------------------------
    My $100,000 Challenge to John Bogle and Larry Sedrowe

    Index investing doesn?t work in the real world of inefficient markets.

    Roger J. Schreiner

    His disciples call themselves ?Bogleheads,? and cling to his ?Pillars of Wisdom? as though they were the Ten Commandments. Those in the media adore him and treat his words like gospel. He?s an icon?a God-like figure to thousands of investors.

    John Bogle is the founder of The Vanguard Group, and launched the first index mutual fund in 1975. Since then, he has dedicated his career to encouraging investors to ?own the market? by investing in index funds. He stresses the importance of asset allocation and low fees within a passive, buy-and-hold investment approach. There is no doubt that Mr. Bogle is sincere and has noble ambitions, but I believe his unwavering faith in the markets is misplaced.

    Today, he is taking up what many are calling his final crusade. On February 24, he appeared before a Congressional committee in Washington, D.C. to tell lawmakers about his vision for ?an independent Federal Retirement Board to oversee both the employer-sponsors and the plan providers, assuring that the interests of plan participants are the first priority?Our Federal Retirement Board should not only foster the use of broad-market index funds in the new defined contribution system but approve only private providers who offer their index funds at minimum costs.?

    Mr. Bogle wants Congress to overhaul our retirement system by ?limiting investment choices? for workers? retirement plans and providing ?more understandable options.? Under his plan, ?only private providers? (such as Vanguard) would be ?approved? investment vehicles.

    If you?re not sure which investments are right for you, don?t worry; John Bogle knows. If he has it his way, a Federal Retirement Board will make your investment decisions for you. Doesn?t Mr. Bogle realize that shareholders in his index funds had their retirement plans decimated last year? Do you really want him guiding your investment decisions? Nothing personal, Mr. Bogle, but I think buy-and-hold has failed?it doesn?t work.

    On June 19, in an interview with IndexUniverse.com, Bogle was asked, ?Do you believe that there are environments that are more favorable to active management than passive management and index investing?? His response was clear. ?There is no way that active managers can possibly have an advantage no matter what the circumstances are. It is just statistically, mathematically, tautologically impossible.?

    My $100,000 Challenge

    I hereby challenge John Bogle to a friendly wager. I want to bet $100,000 of my own money that my active investment approach can outperform his passive one.

    I am challenging Mr. Bogle directly because he has the loudest voice in the industry. However, my challenge is also open to other passive investors and managers. I have set aside $1,000,000 and am ready to accept up to ten challengers. I have $100,000 earmarked for my contest with Mr. Bogle and another $900,000 waiting for nine others who want to accept the challenge.

    The Wager: Both Mr. Bogle and I will place $100,000 in an escrow account at the bank of Mr. Bogle?s choice. At the end of the wager, the winner gets his $100,000 back and the loser will contribute his $100,000 to the winner?s favorite charity in his name.

    The Portfolio: Mr. Bogle is free to construct his own portfolio using the index funds of his choice. I will create an exact replica of Mr. Bogle?s holdings for my portfolio. During the contest, Mr. Bogle must passively hold the assets in his portfolio and, in my portfolio, I will limit myself to trading the same assets. As an active manager, I will be able to use cash in my portfolio to help control risk. Of course, Mr. Bogle can use cash too. If he wishes, a website can be maintained so that the public can follow the portfolios and/or the results. There will be complete transparency.

    The Time Period: Mr. Bogle can choose the length of the contest?anywhere from one year to a few years, or as many years as he wishes.

    Fees and Expenses: Mr. Bogle?s portfolio will incur no (0%) annual management fees. My portfolio will have the disadvantage of incurring a 2% annual management fee, in addition to any transaction costs. We will use a tax-deferred, retirement account structure, so there are no tax implications for short-term capital gains.

    The Results: Risk and return are the most basic and logical measures of investment success. In order to win the contest, a portfolio must have both higher return and lower risk. To calculate risk and return we will use the statistical measures of total return and standard deviation.

    Mr. Bogle? Well, there you have it. Since you believe ?there is no way that active managers can possibly have an advantage no matter what the circumstances,? my $100,000 must seem like free money to you. I?m waiting for your call. I?m not holding my breath though, because I am sure you will find a reason to back down. Of course, if you do, that will help prove my point?that my active investment process is superior to your high-risk ?buy-and-hope? approach.

    Any passive investor who believes he or she can generate a safer and higher return in their buy-and-hold portfolio than I in my active portfolio has an opportunity to relieve me of $100,000. I?m giving the passive investor all the choices, except the one they saddle themselves with?the burden of not managing their money.

    We have created a web page dedicated to ?My $100,000 Challenge to John Bogle? at www.scminvest.com/100k. There we will post the names of everyone (with their permission) who takes me up on my challenge and you can sign up to receive an e-mail alert. You can post your comments, ask me a question, and take our ?Active vs. Passive Survey.? There is also a link for a free subscription to our Dynamic Investor newsletter.

    Talk is Cheap

    I?ve been writing about the flaws of passive investing for over twenty years, but to what end? Articles, debates and media interviews cannot settle the longstanding dispute between active and passive investors. Talk is cheap.

    If John Bogle is a consumer advocate, he is also a lobbyist promoting the products of the company he founded. Unfortunately for investors, he has the ear of lawmakers in Congress, most of whom do not truly understand investing. I believe Bogle?s investment philosophy is dangerous to investors? retirement savings, as evidenced by the results of last year. It is based on old, flawed investment models like Modern Portfolio Theory, the Efficient Market Hypothesis (EMH), and the Random Walk Theory. A proper reading of today?s financial research suggests that these theories are unfounded. To some in our industry, that?s blasphemy?but it?s what I believe to be the truth.

    Passive investing is simply ill-equipped to handle the unpredictable events and market volatility we have experienced over the last ten years?it ignores reality. Professor Robert Shiller of Yale University has shown that the instability of asset prices is much greater than is predicted by EMH. That is, where the EMH suggests that passive exposure to investment markets are a way to control risk, real-life experience (the best kind of evidence) shows that markets are actually the source of risk! Even Eugene Fama himself, the father of EMH, recently admitted, ?markets are not entirely efficient.? In a recent interview with David Salisbury he said, ?market efficiency is a simplification of the world, which does a good job on almost everything, but some things it doesn?t do a good job with.?

    The problem with building an investment strategy around the Efficient Market Hypothesis (and the other theories EMH supports) is that it only takes one event?one market crash?to wipeout your retirement savings. Every investor?s time horizon is limited?they don?t have forever to wait for markets to recover.

    On August 7th, John Mauldin, an economist and author of the newsletter Thoughts from the Frontline, shared his opinion on EMH. ?The Efficient Market Hypothesis, according to Robert Shiller, is one of the most remarkable errors in the history of economic thought. EMH should be consigned to the dustbin of history. We need to stop teaching it, and brainwashing the innocent. Robert Arnott (who oversees $31 billion at Research Affiliates) tells a lovely story of a speech he was giving to some 200 finance professors. He asked how many of them taught EMH?pretty much everyone?s hand was up. Then he asked how many of them believed it. Only two hands stayed up!?



    Baffle a Boglehead: Use Facts and Logic

    Bogleheads won?t admit it, but indexing is high-risk and has delivered low returns historically. According to CrestmontResearch.com, from 1900 through 2008, the stock market has returned just 5.8% on an annualized basis (including dividends and adjusted for inflation). To capture that 5.8% return, investors had to suffer devastating losses along the way, including an 89% loss (1929-32), a 48% loss (1973-74), another 49% loss (2000-02) and, most recently, a 57% loss (2007-09). It took investors 25 years and almost 900% gain just to break even after the 1929-32 bear market. How many years is it going to take Bogleheads to recover from the 57% loss of 2007-09? How much time do you have? See attached chart: ?Impact of Losses?

    Every quarter, in our Dynamic Investor newsletter, we publish ?SCM?s 5 Rules for Investment Success.? We think they are so important that we print them every quarter?we want investors to read them time and time again.

    Our Rules for Investment Success are very different from John Bogle?s Pillars of Wisdom. The glaring difference is that our rules are focused on risk management and an acceptance of uncertainty about the future. Bogle?s Pillars of Wisdom hardly acknowledge that investing is risky. His first pillar is: ?Investing Is Not Nearly as Difficult as It Looks.? Oooo-kay. I don?t know about you, but if Mr. Bogle is going to work from that premise, I don?t want him anywhere near my retirement savings!

    In contrast to Bogle?s first pillar, our first rule is ?Avoid Significant Loss.? The man known as the most successful investor of all time, Warren Buffett, agrees. He reminds investors often of his first two rules: ?Rule #1: Never lose money. Rule #2: Never forget rule #1.?

    ?I May Be Wrong But I Doubt It.? ?Charles Barkley, 11-time NBA All-Star

    There are two reasons why I am not concerned about losing the challenge. First and foremost, because active management is adaptable, it has a huge tactical advantage over passive indexing?sophisticated investors understand this. The risk management benefit, which is inherent in our investment process, gives us an edge that passive investing cannot overcome.

    Secondly, it is highly unlikely that John Bogle or anyone else will accept my challenge. I hope he does, though, because it will be a great opportunity for us to raise money for our charities. If passive management truly is superior, or has some kind of built-in advantage, I won?t have any trouble finding ten passive managers to accept my challenge.

    To be perfectly clear, active investing does not insure success, and it certainly does not guarantee investors will profit. No investment manager can make such a claim, no matter how long the investment time horizon and no matter who is running the portfolio. By challenging Mr. Bogle, my objective is simple: to prove to everyone?especially individual investors who have been misled by the mainstream financial services industry for far too long?that active investing can be less risky than buy-and-hold. The proof will come when no passive manager accepts my challenge. If someone does, then I will have the opportunity to prove it with my results.

    A Safer Way to Reach Your Retirement Goals

    If you look objectively at the history of financial markets, it becomes clear that passive, buy-and-hold investing is a high-risk, low-return endeavor. Investors who are close to or in retirement don?t want high risk and unpredictable returns. They want low risk and more predictable returns. For retirees who own tax-deferred retirement accounts, such as IRAs, active management may offer lower risk and more consistent returns.

    Investors who utilize active investment strategies in their retirement accounts can move between stocks, mutual funds, ETFs and cash with no tax consequences and with little or no transaction costs. The performance of our active investment strategies speaks for itself. For complete performance information on all of our investment models, please visit our website, or contact us directly.

    Investors must unlearn what people like John Bogle have been telling them. The greatest threat to your retirement is uncertainty of the future?it?s the next credit crisis, the next financial crisis, the next recession. If you accept buy-and-hold, you must expect that, at some point, your retirement savings will experience a devastating loss. I always tell investors, ?Your investment process must include an exit strategy, otherwise, you shouldn?t be invested in the stock market.?

    While our past is certain, the future is unknowable. Bogle?s approach is reckless and irrational because it assumes the market will provide positive returns to all investors. There is no guarantee that returns will be positive no matter how long you invest. My advice to you is to find an investment manager who truly understands risk and has a plan for both good and bad markets. Find a financial advisor that is confident enough to take on today?s uncertain markets, but is humble enough to know what he does not know.

    email me: RogerS@SCMInvest.com

  •  
    9

    larry swedroe

    10/27/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Patrick

    I would not exactly equate technical analysis with astrology. The reason is as I stated there are actually useful insights provided by the data on momentum. As I explained you can use the information to help structure trading strategies of passively managed funds (not pure index funds which don't want any tracking error). DFA has incorporated momentum based strategies for several years and it has added value. It is just that they only use it to delay buys they would otherwise make when a stock enters its buy ranges but is exhibiting negative momentum, and their hold range allows them to hold stocks with positive momentum that would otherwise been sold.

    Hope that helps

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    10

    jimkopas

    10/27/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    In a Secular Bear Market (like the one we are only 1/2 way through today) I would most certainly want my funds managed by someone performing TAA rather then a buy and hold strategy.

    How have the buy and hold investors performed over the last 10 years? Compare that to someone that is able to manover through the cyclical bull and bear market cycles and there is no comparrison.

    Passive Investing (buy and hold) are more profitable during secular bull market phases because a rising tide lifts all boats, so investors are rewarded for staying in the market as the long-term momentum is up.

  •  
    11

    CAM Advisor

    10/27/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Jimkopas,

    Could you give us the name and phone number of the individual you know that has been "able to manover (sp) through the cyclical bull and bear market cycles"? I would like to speak with them about their strategy, and how it worked...

    Also, buy and hold investors have done quite well over the last ten years if they were diversified properly in terms of risk, and rebalanced that portfolio on a regular basis. Unfortunately, many people confuse buy and hold with "buying the S&P 500", which would not have done as well.

  •  
    12

    larry swedroe

    10/27/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Jimkopas
    AS noted by CAMadvisor, the problem with your line of thinking is that there is no evidence that anyone can predict when a bear market will arrive, how steep it will be or how long it will last. If there was don't you think Warren Buffett would be listening to him or her? As Peter Lynch stated: "more money has been lost anticipating bear markets than ever lost in them," which is why he was always 100% invested in equities.


    If you are seriously interested in the subject you can review the historical literature on the subject including William Sherden's excellent book The Fortune Sellers. But all the evidence from studies on mutual funds, hedge funds and pension plans shows there is no evidence of persistent ability to outperform.

  •  
    13

    larry swedroe

    10/27/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Roger
    With all due respect such challenges are meaningless. Which is why they are never accepted. Over any short period a random group of monkeys throwing darts will outperform a passive strategy. Also no one claims that it is impossible to outperform a passive strategy. However, all the evidence shows that the odds of doing so are so poor it is imprudent to try.

    I suggest you read the studies on pension plan performance if you are interested in the subject. They never hire anyone without a great track record--the alphas are large before hiring. They pay lower fees than individuals. They hire top consulting firms to help them with due diligence and the results are the exactly what the EMH forecasts: There is no persistence of outperformance AFTER they are hired beyond the randomly expected---risk adjusted alphas are indistinguishable from zero even before transition costs.

    So we already have the answer to the question after studies on thousands of plans and many similar studies on mutual funds and similar studies on hedge funds.

    Now if you are a scientist you know that has far more meaning than the type of wager you wish to make.

    Best wishes
    Larry

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    14

    jimkopas

    10/27/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    "Also, buy and hold investors have done quite well over the last ten years if they were diversified properly in terms of risk, and rebalanced that portfolio on a regular basis. Unfortunately, many people confuse buy and hold with "buying the S&P 500", which would not have done as well."

    Re: CAM Advisor

    We must be using different definitions of a buy and hold investor. I would not consider it a buy and hold strategy if an investor "rebalanced that portfolio on a regular basis," as you stated above. I would think rebalancing your portfolio would by definition not be a buy and hold strategy but I could be misinformed.

    Re: Larry

    I completely agree with you that no one will ever be able to predict when a bear market will arrive, how steep it will be or how long it will last. No matter how long you study the market you will never be able to forecast it perfectly because it is influenced too much by human psychology. But there are certainly times in the market when investors can take educated risks. Answer this for me, would you be more willing to invest in the stock market when you only have to pay $6.44 for $1 of earnings (in 1982) or when you have to pay $44.20 for that same $1 of earnings (2000)?

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    15

    MrRosemary

    10/27/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    I have wrestled with the technical analysis and the seeming futility of buy and hold. Part of the problem with technical charting is that the past is so easy to predict. Like many people, I looked at TA and momentum strategies as a way to avoid market collapses.

    The principles of technical analysis are based on the premise that they work because they have worked in the past. Depending on the system you use, such as candlestick charts, you make the assumption that the future can be predicted.

    However, nobody could anticipate the market tumble of last year. People bought the dip into the start of the year only to be pummeled again in March. Often critics cite this as a failure of buy and hold, but I see it as an immense failure of technical analysis more than anything.

    I have done well as a novice active trader, but on a risk-adjusted basis I would have fared better (and had more free time) had just done passive investing. One of the more shocking things I did was compare my portfolio of single stocks with a passive portfolio of DFA products. Risk adjusted, the DFA portfolio has done as well at a lower cost. In addition, some asset classes are nearly impossible to own as a individual investor. Foreign small/micro cap value stocks are an example of products that exceedingly riskly and difficult for the individual investor to research and purchase.

    Its a hard pill to swallow, and it took a great deal of convincing to step back and not tinker with things. When I look back at my portfolio, I don't see great returns. I see that I got lucky. Thats it. I was just the beneficiary of chance. I'm not content with luck.

    I forget the exact numbers, but an amazingly small number of stocks amounted to something like 75% of the total return of the S&P over a one year period. It may have been something like 25-50 stocks out of the 500. If you have 50 chances to get it right, and 450 chances to get it wrong, the probability is that most people will get it wrong and have very poor returns.

    Instead, the best option is to own all the top performing stocks. The only way to ensure this is to own ALL the stocks. Thereby ensuring that you always get market returns. Hence the premise of index investing.

    If the mangers of trillions of dollars in mutual funds, pension funds, private equity, and hedge funds can't outperform the market, how arrogant would it be to think that I can?

    My retirement is more important to me than to be left to chance. So in my reading, which is based on the best available data compiled by people a lot smarter than me, I must defer to the experts. And that research suggests that the most prudent thing to do is target asset classes rather than individual stocks.

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    16

    MarkWolfinger

    10/28/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Larry,

    As a PhD chemist, I understand the value of research.

    But these studies bring nothing new to the table. And the study cited is flawed. That's the point.

    Flawed. It serves no purpose to look at 'rules' for trading without knowing the SKILL OF THE INVESTORS WHOSE TRADES ARE BEING TRACKED.

    And if the 'rules' are being followed by a computer, that's even worse.

    Question: If, as you asked, these studies said these trading 'rules' worked, would anyone really believe the results? I just read a detailed study that made bad assumptions and thus, to the uninitiated, poor conclusions were drawn.

    We are not in disagreement here.



  •  
    17

    MarkWolfinger

    10/28/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    To Roger S:

    You seem to have concluded that Larry believes NO ONE can use TA successfully. Not true, and no one ever said that.

    The masses cannot use it. They cannot master the techniques;, they don't want to be bothered; and they don't understand the first thing about investing.

    It's a bad idea to send these people out to try to beat the market.

    Obviously there are successful technicians who demonstrate that some people have the required skills.

    But that will never be true for the masses. Would you change your challenge so that 100 randomly selected investors undertake to out-perform Bogle? Of course not. You have the skills. They do not.

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    18

    larry swedroe

    10/28/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Jimkopas

    I disagree with your definition of buy and hold> if you simply buy and hold and don't rebalance you are in fact ACTIVE --just not taking action---you have made the decision to allow your portfolio to style drift to a different asset allocation than the one you desired. Rebalancing is the only way to be a true buy and hold (to your AA) investor. The other thing one should be doing, at least for taxable accounts, is tax loss harvesting---otherwise not optimizing performance.

    RE you other question about when it is better to invest. IMO that is a very common error made by investors. There is no better time per se (with exceptions when you have an obvious bubble--and you can tell that when TIPS yields are higher than expected stock returns using Gordon Model, or simply higher the E/P as they were in 2000). The reason is that when you have low P/Es all that means is that the market perceives it to be very risky to be in stocks. So the now higher expected returns you rely on are simply compensation for the greater risk. And vice versa.

    This line of thinking is like saying value stocks are better investments than growth stocks do to lower valuations--but that cannot be right. The lower valuations simply reflect the perception of greater risk of investing in those stocks.

    Also since current valuations should be considered when deciding on your AA as they impact your NEED to take risk. Lower valuations mean higher expected returns and less need to hold equities---and vice versa.

    I hope above helpful

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    19

    larry swedroe

    10/28/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Mark

    I have to disagree --the studies are not flawed. They are perhaps limited. So now let's dissect that.

    First the studies do demonstrate that rules based investing doesn't work AFTER costs. That leaves the possibility that smart technicians could exploit the information conveyed by the signals.

    The problem with that is the studies on outcomes of managers using timing strategies which include TAA is no better.

    Is it possible there are a few "Buffetts" out there who are technicians. yes. But they can only work if they manage very small sums. Once they manage large sums transactions costs --in the form of market impact ---will swamp the skill. This is insight that is important. There are studies demonstrating that very point.

    Best
    Larry

  •  
    20

    mmahoney61

    10/29/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Roger-

    Are you kidding? John Bogle built one of the best investment managenment firms for the public? If you are so good with all your "prowess" . Why do you need otehr peoples money?

  •  
    21

    time111

    10/29/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    I believe technical analysis is the key to any investment
    success. The fundamentals must be good to start with, but
    unless the stock is moving up at this time, it not worth
    pursuing it.

    It is the technical analysis that can help an investor figure
    out which way the market currently is heading and whether
    or not to invest in a stock.

    Using a good market timing system can help an investor profit
    both from the upside and downside of this market.

    Consider http://invetrics.com

    Its daily DJIA index trading signal is up a respectable 62% for
    the year (as of October 23, 2009) and it is free of charge for
    individual investors.

  •  
    22

    artie196

    10/30/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Roger:

    Your remarks about whether technical is a waste of time were
    very thought provoking.

    I would like to take the conversation to a different level.

    Our operations research group investigation during the last
    187 months into the question of why there is a disparity of
    7% between the gross returns and the net real return of the
    average mutual fund investor since 1950 has come up with
    some conclusions. The return disparity pretty well guarantees
    the average fund investor will never accumulate much wealth
    counter to what is implied in industry advertising and
    embedded in our psyche. It also means that any gross return
    of less than 7% results in a negative net real return.

    Therefore, it is clear there is no organized effort within a 6
    trillion industry that can be intellectually characterized as
    "technical analysis" if it embraces helping the average
    investor. It does not exist. Instead we have well intentioned
    charges and counter charges about how funds do not and
    never will consistently beat the S&P 500 over time and,
    therefore, if you can't beat the market then join it by
    investing in unmanaged, auto-pilot instruments. Hard
    scientific evidence does not exist. Moving the doubling of
    principal from 55 to 17 years is an improvement but still
    inadequate. The average investor does not have enough 17
    year periods left in his or her earning years to potentially
    double principal in 8 years .

    The superficial answer to the gross-to-net-real return
    conundrum is the combined effect of
    fees(1%),expenses(1%),taxes(1%) and inflation(4%).While
    fees can be overcome through the selection of no-load and no
    12B-1 fee funds, it is unrealistic to assume - regardless of
    any amount of jawboning and ranting - expenses will
    miraculously disappear.We can also forget about taxes and I
    don't know any power on earth that has been able to tame
    the inflation beast over the long term.

    Managed funds are the answer but consider their built in
    scientific limits:

    Consider a container of 10,000 marbles. Each marble
    represents a fund. Each fund has an equal chance of being
    selected. Suppose 2,500 funds are winners (funds that beat
    the S&P 500) and 7,500 funds are losers (funds that do not
    beat the S&P 500). With millions of selection (investor) trials,
    there will always be a 3 times greater chance of selecting
    losers than winners in the precise, predictable 3 to 1 ratio.
    Unless the 7,500 losers can be objectively removed from the
    container, science tells us there will always be a 3 times
    greater chance of selecting loser funds unless science
    intervenes to reverse adverse selection and overcomes the
    7% gross-to-net-real return gap.

    How can adverse fund selection be reversed?

    Arthur

    Arthur Regen,Managing Director,Regen Associates
    http//.www.mutualfundwinnerpicks.com

  •  
    23

    WilliamEng@...

    10/30/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Does Technical Analysis work? It's always worked for me. I've been using it for over 40 years. This debate about the validity of Technical Analysis is rather amusing, and somewhat trite, but somewhat understandable if one doesn't know how to use their knowledge.

    William F. Eng (WilliamEng@aol.com)

    Author of "Technical Analysis of Stocks, Options & Futures," "Trading Rules," etc. Retired member of CBOT, CBOE, etc.

    PS. Astrology does work.

  •  
    24

    JasonBGordon

    10/30/09 | Report as spam

    Answer: "NO!"

    Fundamental Analysis is often important in stacking the odds in your favor, but Technical Analysis is crucial in terms of establishing entry and exit points on your trades. Both TA and FA allow you to identify trends. TA lets you define your risk. I do not know how anyone can trade a stock without using technical analysis to determine their trade parameters.

  •  
    25

    MarkWolfinger

    10/31/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    "I do not know how anyone can trade a stock without using technical analysis to determine their trade parameters."

    I don't understand how anyone can trade stock with out using options to reduce risk and increase the odds of earning a profit.

  •  
    26

    larry swedroe

    11/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Jason
    There is not a single study showing fundamental analysis has value, because the market already has incorporated into prices what you think you have "discovered" in your analysis. There is a huge body of evidence showing that there is no persistence of outperformance beyond the randomly expected. And this is true for mutual funds and hedge funds and even the new behavioral finance funds that claim to
    exploit investor errors. While it is true the conventional wisdom is that the way to add value is fundamental and technical analysis, there is no evidence to support that belief. If millions of people believe a foolish thing, that doesn't make it less foolish. The Earth is the center of the universe and the Earth is flat were also once conventional wisdom. And the literature shows the same for market
    timing efforts.

    And note that I was a senior officer at an investment bank, advising major corporations on managing risk, and we sold technical analysis tools. They always worked IN SAMPLE, which by definition is how rules get created. In real world, after costs they don't seem to work. And that is what the academic papers show. The SCIENCE shows. Not peoples
    unsubstantiated opinions.

  •  
    27

    larry swedroe

    11/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Mark
    First, no one should trade stocks period, as that has more to do with speculating than investing.

    Second, you increase the odds of a profit but you change the distribution of potential returns in unfavorable way, cutting off the potential for large gains while not reducing the risk of large losses (just cutting the size of them down by the premium). That creates negative skewness and when you add that to excess kurtosis that stocks have you end up with distribution of potential returns which investors don't like (and make Sharpe ratios btw, meaningless).

    So while I believe there is a place for options, as we discussed, as a general rule IMO there really is no need or place for them. So we have to agree to disagree on this one

    Best
    Larry

  •  
    28

    MarkWolfinger

    11/03/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    If no one should trade stocks, period - as you claim [Larry please notice that I am not disagreeing with you] what does that say about the Prudent Man Rule? I believe it's an outdated piece of junk. You?

    I don't mind agreeing to disagree, but you have a lot of readers are are giving them incorrect information based on INACCURATE conclusions.

    The data clearly shows that writing covered calls outperforms a portfolio of buy and hold - or at least has done so through both bull and bear markets dating back more than 21 years. That's the period for which data is available.

    Not only does it outperform, but it also produces a smoother ride - with less volatility in the value of the investor's portfolio.

    Any investor who does not mind under performing during raging bull markets - is more than amply compensated by adopting option strategies that out-perform almost all the time.

    The data is available (BMX vs SPTR) for anyone to see.

    You also write of 'large losses. How does investing in indexes prevent those losses? options provides the ability to do that - at a cost. Diversification and asset allocation are not as foolproof as people like to pretend they are.

    I was hoping to convince you, a respected financial writer, to see the benefits of using options. Apparently I am unable to do that.

  •  
    29

    Allan Roth

    11/03/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Even if technical analysis did work, the logical conclusion is that it would no longer work once it was discovered.

    We all have free access to this data and once people noticed a pattern it would be too late because people would have to start trading when it looked like the pattern may be emerging. If one waited until the pattern, it would already be too late.

    I don't use technical analysis but, if I did, I'd use the opposite of what the trends show since following the trend would be following the herd.

  •  
    30

    mzhuang

    11/07/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Larry,

    Here is the abstract of MIT's Andy Lo's paper "Foundations of Technical Analysis: Computational Algorithms, Statistical Inference and Empirical Implementation.

    "Technical analysis, also known as "charting," has been a part of financial practice for many decades, but this discipline has not received the same level of academic
    scrutiny and acceptance as more traditional approaches such as fundamental analysis... In this paper, we propose a systematic and automatic approach to technical pattern recognition using nonparametric kernel regression, and we apply this method to a large number of U.S. stocks from 1962 to 1996 to evaluate the effectiveness of technical analysis. By comparing the unconditional empirical distribution
    of daily stock returns to the conditional distribution - conditioned on specific technical indicators such as head-and-shoulders or double-bottoms-we find
    that over the 31-year sample period, several technical indicators do provide incremental information and may have some practical value."

    Michael Zhuang
    http://www.investment-fiduciary.com

  •  
    31

    mzhuang

    11/07/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Oops, I forgot to ask the question.

    Did you get the chance to read the paper? What do you think?

    Michael Zhuang
    http://www.investment-fiduciary.com

  •  
    32

    mzhuang

    11/07/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Larry,

    I hate to contradict you, but there are many studies that show fundamental analysis has value. For instance,

    "Value investing: the use of historical financial statement information to separate winners from losers" by Prof. Piotroski of Univ. of Chicago

    "Separating winners and losers among low book-to-value stocks using financial statement analysis" by Prof. Mohanram of Columbia.

    Michael Zhuang
    http://www.investment-fiduciary.com

  •  
    33

    larry swedroe

    11/07/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Michael
    If technical or fundamental analysis worked then we would see excess profits from active management with persistence greater than randomly expected, and not a single study I know has found that to be true.

    On the technical analysis paper--the key phrase in the document is "Although this does not necessarily imply that technical analysis can be used to generate ?excess? trading profits."

    My favorite story on technical analysis is this one. To me it says it all, at least relative to charting. I relate the story in The Only Guide You'll Ever Need to a Winning Investment Strategy

    In 1959 Harry Roberts, of the University of Chicago, had a computer generate a series of random numbers that would have a distribution matching the average weekly price change of the average stock (about 2 percent). Since the numbers were randomly generated, there was no pattern and therefore no knowledge that could be obtained by studying a chart of this nature. In order to create the illusion that his charts were those of particular stocks, Roberts placed a starting price of $40 on each chart. He then took a group of these charts to the leading technical analysts of his day. He asked for their advice on whether to buy or sell these unnamed hypothetical stocks. He told them that he did not want them to know the name of the stock since this knowledge might bias them. Each technical analyst had very strong advice on what Roberts should do but since the numbers were randomly generated the patterns were only in the minds of the observers. I am sure that you will never hear about this story from a technical analyst.


    Best
    Larry


  •  
    34

    larry swedroe

    11/07/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Michael
    Thanks for the two papers on fundamental analysis.

    Two comments, first there are many studies that find supposed anomalies that exist on paper. But once the strategies are implemented in the real world the anomalies often disappear because while strategies have no costs, implementing them does. Consider the following

    Richard Roll is a professor of finance at UCLA?s Anderson School of Business. He was also a Vice President at Goldman Sachs where he founded the mortgage securities business in 1985. His 1968 doctoral thesis won the Irving Fisher Prize as the best American dissertation in economics. He has won the Graham and Dodd Award for financial writing three times and the Leo Melamed Award for the best financial research by an American business school professor. He is the past president of the American Finance Association and has been an associate editor of 11 different journals in finance and economics. And he is a principal in the firm Roll and Ross Asset Management. Listen carefully to his admission:
    I have personally tried to invest money, my client?s and my own, in every single anomaly and predictive result that academics have dreamed up. And I have yet to make a nickel on any of these supposed market inefficiencies. An inefficiency ought to be an exploitable opportunity. If there?s nothing investors can exploit in a systematic way, time in and time out, then it?s very hard to say that information is not being properly incorporated into stock prices. Real money investment strategies don?t produce the results that academic papers say they should.


    Finally, the power of the EMH is really demonstrated by the fact that if an exploitable anomaly is discovered the very act of exploiting it and the competition for excess profits will make it disappear in short order. A great example of this is the new behavioral funds designed to exploit these type anomalies.


    The authors of the study ?Behavioral Finance: Are the Disciples Profiting from the Doctrine?? Prithviraj Banerjee( Florida State University), Vaneesha R. Boney (Florida State University) and Colby Wright (assistant professor of finance, Central Michigan University), identified 16 self-proclaimed or media-identified behavioral mutual funds ? funds that practice some form of behavioral finance in their investment strategies.

    The authors analyzed the behavioral funds to determine whether they successfully attract investment dollars and also if their strategies earn abnormal returns for their investors. The following summarizes their findings:

    ?Behavioral funds are successfully attracting investment dollars at a significantly greater rate than index and matched actively managed non-behavioral funds. Investors apparently believe that the pricing errors are persistently exploitable.

    ?While the funds do outperform S&P 500 index funds, the explanation for the outperformance is they load very heavily on the HmL factor (they have significant exposure to value stocks). Thus, after adjusting for risk, they do not earn abnormal returns.

    ?Behavioral mutual funds are tantamount to value investing and not much more

    Best wishes
    Larry

  •  
    35

    mzhuang

    11/11/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Larry,

    I am definitely not a EMH purist as you are. EMH assumes no barrier to acquire information and on top of that no friction to trade. These assumptions are just not true.

    A more reasonable model maybe Joseph Stiglitz's efficient amount of inefficiency model where the market is inefficient, but the marginal benefit to exploit the inefficient equals the marginal cost of doing so. I would further argue the marginal cost does not limit to trading costs and information acquisition costs, it may also includes behavioral cost such that we just hate reading dry annual reports of public companies, unlike Warren Buffet who equates reading annual reports to reading Playboys.

    The fact that there are no successful behavioral funds yet does not in itself prove EMH is beyond reproach. EMH was first proposed in 1962, it was not until 1971 that the first index fund was born, at the time, it was call "Jack Bogle's folly".

  •  
    36

    mzhuang

    11/11/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    That said, I do agree there is a danger for ordinary investors to believe anything other than the EMH. Let's assume only 5% of investors can exploit the market inefficiency, chances are that over 50% of investor would think they are that 5%. Research evidences bear that out: most investors are just wayyyyy over-confident about their ability.

    Michael Zhuang
    http://investment-fiduciary.com

  •  
    37

    larry swedroe

    11/12/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Michael
    First I am not an EMH "purest"--- what I do believe is that while there are inefficiencies it is extremely difficult to exploit them after costs and no way yet known to identify the few active managers that will succeed in the future. So while the market is not perfectly efficient, the winning strategy is to invest as if it is perfectly efficient.

    That is really what Thaler is admitting when he says his own money is mostly in index funds and that it is extremely difficult to beat the market

  •  
    38

    Grand_Supercycle

    11/21/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    TA does work if you apply it correctly.

    We will make new lows according to my charts.

    Technical analysis can also assist us as to the direction of the economy.

    My indicators can identify trend changes before they occur.

    They warned me of an impending market crash back in early *2007*

    My long term USD indicator has been giving BULLISH warnings for some time and I am expecting a USD rally.

    The VIX continues to give bullish warnings as well.

    Is the bear market rally ending ?

    I post my analysis at this forum:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/forum/market-outlook-0

  •  
    39

    larry swedroe

    11/22/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Grand Supercycle

    I get it, while all the academic studies show that TA fails to work beyond the randomly expected, especially after taxes and trading costs, that outcome is the result of the stupidity of all the people using it. All these major companies that sell their TA services to large pension plans (and obviously have good track records before they get hired or they would not get hired) are filled with dumb people who don't understand how to apply TA.

  •  
    40

    artie196

    12/04/09 | Reported as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Current Methods Of Fund Selection Deny 60 Million Mutual
    Fund Investors Access To Wealth Creation.

    Why is there such a disparity between the net real returns of
    8-9% produced by the Mutual Fund Winners Spreadsheet
    (MFWS) www.mutualfundwinnerpicks.com since 1994
    compared to the average investor?s net real returns of 1-2%
    - confirmed by Dalbar ?s recent independent study update -
    after fees, expenses, taxes and inflation?

    Rather than bemoan this sad state of affairs and since it is
    unrealistic to expect expenses, taxes and inflation to be
    drastically reduced any time soon, the approach was to find
    out what controllable factor(s) are responsible for this
    corrosive drag on performance.

    Since fees are controllable, the MFWS is confined only to no-
    load funds. These funds have no fees and, therefore, incur
    no additional acquisition costs giving the fund investor an
    initial, but limited, boost in returns. While this was a valuable
    contribution, the investigation was not satisfied and probed
    further and deeper into the problem. After all, why should the
    average investor be subjected to a 95% chance of zero
    wealth creation over a lifetime of employment?

    After 15 years of research using over 200 million data cells
    and some luck, the culprit was found. It was adverse
    selection, which is the systematic selection of more losers
    than winners usually on a 75:25 ratio basis, caused by an
    overwhelming number of losers. By reversing these odds,
    mathematically, many times more winners than losers are
    now easily and consistently picked.

    A winner is defined as a fund whose performance consistently
    outperforms the Standard & Poor?s 500 Stock Index over
    time.
    A loser is defined as a fund whose performance consistently
    under performs the Standard & Poor?s 500 Stock Index over
    time.

    The MFWS was designed in 1994 to enable investors with no
    previous fund investment experience (or with loads of it) to
    pick winners, to overcome adverse selection, to become
    wealth creators and take control of their financial lives.

    Isn?t it time the mutual fund industry stopped relying on
    gossip, tips, slogans, shibboleths, canards, anecdotes? and
    begin using basic, proven scientific principles to help at least
    60 million fund investors create wealth?

    Arthur Regen, Managing Director, Regen Associates

    www.mutualfundwinnerpicks.com

    RegenAssociates@comcast.net

    888.666.8921

  •  
    41

    bjay27

    01/03/10 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Roger: I dont think any of these passive investment guys have the guts . As Yogi Berra said " In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, in practice there is". You are asking them to practice what they apparently seem to stand for.

    Larry: Warren Buffett did not make his fortune in the markets. Most of them were off market deals, in return for risk free preferential and bonds which in turn diluted the value of existing share holders. (There are more points to make about Buffett, but thats a different topic for another day). So lets leave him out of this shall we?

    Ive used technical analysis for the last 8.5 yrs and bought and sold stocks for 30% to 50% gains without knowing to which sector they belonged to. Ive not read any financial daily since mid 2004 and I have still done wonderfully well through 2008 and 2009. I come from a science background and only thing I understand about finance is credit is positive and debit is negative. So I have sufficeint proof that TA works.

    My experience working for a sell side broking firm is that fund managers, especially the long only guys, think they are god's gift to investors. Using pesky little things like trend lines and Elliot waves, when I called the crash of 2008, they wouldnt care to listen to you. Bcos they went to Ivy league school or have some fancy academic background. If Technicals was all about just applying rules, people like me would not have a job. Market truth like the Samurai Truth is Visceral not Cerebral.

    Cheers,
    JB

  •  
    42

    larry swedroe

    01/04/10 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    JB

    First I suggest that if you have not read post 33 you do so.

    Second, the problem with your line of thinking is that there are thousands of people doing exactly what you do and get entirely different results, most losing.
    Get enough people trying anything, like fund managers, and some will win randomly. Small samples based on anecdotal evidence tell us nothing.

    As Nassim Nicholas Taleb said: "
    Lucky fools do not bear the slightest suspicion that they may be lucky fools?by definition, they do not know that they belong to such a category. They will act as if they deserve the money. The lucky fool [is] defined as a person who benefited from a disproportionate share of luck but attributes his success to some other, generally very precise, reason."
    ?Nassim Nicholas Taleb, Fooled By Randomness

    And btw, I worked for a major financial institution for a long time and during that period part of my job was to sell technical analysis tools to major corporations--and they always worked IN SAMPLE.

    And also note that Eugene Fama, professor of finance, worked as a technician in his first job. His job was to find signals that worked. And he was always able to find signals that worked in sample, but something happened when they were applied to the real world

    As to Buffett, do you think investors should take their advice from you or him? Rhetorical question.

  •  
    43

    bjay27

    01/04/10 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Larry regarding post 33 - Ideas have consequences and bad ideas have bad consequences. The experiment was one such bad idea. If you expect to get purfied water out of a water purifier, you need pour water into it. If you pour urine into it and claim that you are not getting pure water out of is non-sensical. Will you call this a defect of the water purifier?

    To most of us the Echocardiogram fluctuations look Random. Just because you and I cannot interpret it properly, does it mean the Doctor who interprets this correctly and provides a diagnosis is Lucky? Your anology bringing in Taleb's Lucky fool is equivalent to this and may be even more silly. No one gets lucky for 8.5years. What about George Soros did he get lucky? He had Tom Demark as his private advisor for several years. What about Paul Tudor Jones? Did he get lucky? What about Marty Schwartz?

    As to Buffett : Investors should take their advice from people like me not from Buffett. Mr Buffett by his own admission does not have a clue as to what the market is going to do over the next year or two. More often than not, people like me know what the market is going to do atleast over the next 6months. If investors had bought GE along with Mr Buffett they are yet to breakeven. If they had bought Goldman along with him, they would have seen their investment go down 2/3rds in value before breaking even. If they had bought the buy america call, they would have been decimated as the S&P dropped by a whopping 45%. Mr Buffett in 2001, spoke of a "new normal" and asked investors to expect single digit return. Boy! what Amazing calls!!!

    Im sure all of you would soon be billionaires.

    Good luck and all the best,
    JB

  •  
    44

    larry swedroe

    01/05/10 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    JB

    First,
    The problem with your analogy is that professor Roberts went to the top technical analysts in Chicago, not random people, to get their opinions.

    Second, 8.5 years cannot be luck? Well then how do you explain the fact that there have been money managers with track records of beating the market for as long as 15 years in a row and then have blown up. Or the fact that the single best mutual fund in the 70s went on to turn every dollar investing in the 80s into 27 cents, during the second best decade ever. Of course 8.5 years can be luck. Or even longer periods. It is simply a matter of the "law of large numbers." Get enough people playing any game and some will random win--just like blind squirrels will occasionally find acorns.

    Third, Buffett admits that he doesn't know where market is going because all the evidence shows that there are no such experts. I leave it to readers to decide for themselves whether they think they should listen to you or Buffett.

    I wish you continued success in your efforts.

    Best wishes
    Larry

  •  
    45

    bjay27

    01/05/10 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Larry,

    Ill try this one last time.

    My client was the best performing fund of a particular region( I would have revealed the region but for ND agreement) - the fund manager follows Peter Lynch's method and is always fully invested. In 2008 they were massacared and nearly got wiped out and now are barely returning 9-10% after the markets have doubled all over the world.

    Yeah!! Soros, Paul Tudor Jones, Marty Schwartz, Larry Hite were all lucky. Since you and I cannot render art like Michangelo and Picasso, they were just lucky. Since we cannot shape our Phsyique like Arnold Schwarzneger, he is an alien. Since we cannot play tennis as competitively as Pete Sampras and Roger Federer, they are all freaks.

    Please go on and induct more people into believing that Buffett's words are Gospel. Buffett will go on cutting more sweet deals for backing CEO's (Saloman, Gillette... upto GE and Goldman) and make you guys think he is pulling money out of the market. The more of you believe in that, the better it is for people like me. We will keep pulling money out of such suckers and get "lucky" beating the market every year.

    Best regards, Over and out,
    JB

  •  
    46

    smpatel

    01/05/10 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    JB,

    Are you serious? You said people like you know what market is going to do in next six months, great. I am sure you are not in the business of selling anything, are you? You don't need to as you know the "future".
    By the way Buffett call made money for people less than a year though it was a long call.
    As he said in the call quoting Wayne Gretzkey:I skate to where the puck is going to be, not to where it has been.
    regards,

  •  
    47

    larry swedroe

    01/06/10 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    JB

    Try this, there are thousands of managers trying to do just what Soros and others have done. We only hear generally about the success stories, not the thousands of failures.

    Every study ever done basically shows that the few winners are no more than would be randomly expected and there is no way to differentiate the lucky from the skillful

    So I did not say that there is no skill. I said you can neither identify it ahead of time nor differentiate skill from luck because there are many managers with very long term records who then blow up, and you conveniently ignore them. I gave you two excellent examples of great long term records that then went on to deliver very poor results.

    And finally, by the time you have a long enough track record to "know" it is skill, cash inflows sows the seeds of destruction of skill. There is even a paper demonstrating that.

    Best wishes
    Larry

  •  
    48

    bjay27

    01/07/10 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    @smpatel:

    First dont twist words to suit what you want argue. I have said "More often than not, people like me know what the market is going to do atleast over the next 6months". That means there are times things are not clear on the charts. AND we stay out of the market during those time. This is precisely how we control risk and stay on the right side of the market. This is unlike passive investing, where you are exposed to the market risk every single day.

    Ofcourse I have something to sell. But not to anyone in this forum. The difference being that if I'm not right CONSISTENTLY my instituitional clients WILL take their business somewhere else. On the other you must question the motive of Buffett's call. At the time of his media interview, his put options that he wrote on Nikkei, Dow, FTSE were all more or less in the money. Remember, Mr Buffett has batted for a long time with SEC to allow him to be excluded from disclosures so that people dont copy him. Do you think out of the blue he volunteered and wanted people to do exactly what he was doing?

    Buffett's call made money??? It is making now. Each time would you like to be down somewhere between 40-65% and then wait for breakeven AND then make money? or would you want to make money right away. Buffett's calls are the first type and technicals are the second type. Remember when you are down 25%, its not the same 25% gain thats needed to breakeven. Its 33%. AND THEN you have start making profits. If this is kind of investing that suits you, who am I to say anything.

    All the best,
    JB

  •  
    49

    bjay27

    01/07/10 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Larry,

    You are sadly wrong. The reminiscences of a stock operator, the classic, is a book on Jesse Livermore, one of the first trend followers. He considered himself a failure after making a fortune twice and losing it. Almost all the lessons we technical analyst have imbibed that we should not stay against the trend are based on his works. (Ok, before you conclude anything Jesse was worth over 5million in 1940's at the time of his death. That should easily be worth $50million in today's value if not more)

    For a while I thought you never had SKILL in your vocabulary. Thanks for accepting there is something called as skill even though it was a veiled reference.

    Since you seem to be fond of studies. Here is one for you. The Dow theory the corner stone of technical analysis was put to test from 1897 to 1998. There were 25 sell signals and 26 buy signals. The average return for the sell signal has been 10% and the average return during the buy signal has been 46%. More importantly during the great depression the sell signal produced a gain of 73% and during the recession of 1938 a return 23%. The bull market before the start of the great depression produced a return of 226%.

    There were only 2 failures of the 26 buy signals and the losses sustained during these failures were 7% and 6%. Of 25 sell signals there were 5 failed signals. The losses from these 4 of them were 3%, 3%, 6% and 1% and the fifth 23%.

    Since I also apply the Dow theory, here is another fact. The Dow theory threw a sell signal on Nov 22 2007 for the great recession of 2007-2009. The gains from this signal = 31%. Can you please tell me which was the best performing passive fund of 2008 and how much was its return?

    Please bear in mind, all this just from the plain act of buying when Dow theory says its a bull market and selling when it says its a bear market. YES, without including any of the techniques that can measure the amplitude of a move.

    So here it is for you Larry - a study over a century. May be you can go back to calling luck lasts for a century. Thats the only excuse left. Because these signals are cost effective and since most of these signals last well over an year, you cannot bring up the tax side of your argument.

    All the best,
    JB

  •  
    50

    mzhuang

    01/07/10 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    BJ,

    Judging from what you said, I am convinced Forbes magazine screwed up big time when they rank billionaires in the world. You should rank, at the very least, head and shoulder with Warren Buffet. After all, he professes to not knowing much what the market is gonna do but you "know what the market is going to do at least over the next six month."

    See Warren Buffet on market forecast here
    http://investment-fiduciary.com/2009/11/11/what-warren-buffet-has-to-say-about-market-forcasts/

    Michael

  •  
    51

    larry swedroe

    01/07/10 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    JB
    Suggest you go back and read the first post, study on technical analysis signals.
    Best
    Larry

  •  
    52

    smpatel

    01/07/10 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    JB,

    Thanks for clarifying your position that rather than claiming you know the next 6 months future market direction, you adopt active risk mgt. when the direction is not clear. Again, please feel free to correct me if I have misquoted.
    BTW, I am not opposed to active risk mgt. as one of the investing techniques - Larry and I had a dialogue on this at other post:
    http://moneywatch.bnet.com/investing/blog/wise-investing/the-smartest-things-ever-said-about-market-timing/1089/?tag=col1;blog-river
    The study Larry is citing here is for the periods between 2001-2007 (academics believe longer periods are not relevant for timing strategies!), the severe bear market we just had was not part of this study, it would be interesting to know the results if it was - but then 2001-2002 bear market was in the study!
    I understand your comments about time to breakeven after a loss and then make money requires patience but then relying on the signal also requires emotional discipline and a belief in the system, in other words both B&H (with rebalancing) and Timing are emotionally challenging strategies, if one takes out the emotional part then returns from timing have not been proven profitable over B&H (with rebalancing) - that I am aware of.

    Best wishes,

  •  
    53

    TonyMoroni

    01/07/10 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Dow Theory is not a "Theory" or based on any academic research or principles, it was a series of editorials published in the WSJ.

    If TA is so effective, why is there so much empirical evidence against it (e.g. the studies cited by the article these comments are in response to)? No matter how emotional and strongly worded your argument is for it, the fact is there is a wealth of evidence against using technical analysis and market timing in general.

    What you're saying is that the institutions and professional traders on the buy side who employ technical analysis and the majority (who fail to beat their risk adjusted benchmarks) "just don't get it" and/or they're stupid.

    Why should an individual choose to play the loser's game of active management over investing passively when there is so much evidence that the majority of professionals fail at active management?

  •  
    54

    bjay27

    01/07/10 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Micheal,

    The best way to deflect a difficult point is to follow if-you're-so-smart-why-am-I-rich routine. Im not surprised you have taken the same route.

    Remember, Buffett, again by his own admission, does not understand tech stocks. Does it mean CISCO, Microsoft, Oracle, AOL did not make huge moves? It is just a direct reflection of his inability to use fundamentals effectively on these new companies. Likewise, the fact that technicians have a fair grip of the market direction when Buffett cannot is nothing great. Its just NOT Buffett's forte.

  •  
    55

    bjay27

    01/07/10 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Larry,

    Let me put post number 49 in simpler terms. We remain passive until the Dow theory signals a bear market. AND then we sell. Once the Dow theory signals a bull market, you buy and remain passive until the next bear market signal. Given the fact that the time span between these signals is atleast greater than a year, tell me what transaction costs are we talking about here to far outweigh the gains?

    Best,
    JB

  •  
    56

    bjay27

    01/07/10 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    @Tonymoroni:

    The fact that its not mechanistic and requires experienced judgement is the reason why it still provides an edge. If TA was mechanistic, markets would have discounted it in price.

    The buy side guys are intelligent guys which is why they do not get it. Not because they are stupid. Whoever be it, have to do some internship with Mr Market. Some learn from it, most of them do not.

    If you adopt the passive invesment strategy - you are the average. How can you beat the average then? And that is why you should try active management.

    Best,
    JB

  •  
    57

    larry swedroe

    01/08/10 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    JB

    First, I look at evidence from academic papers, not claims by individuals about their own results.

    The following paper analyzed the out of sample results of the Dow Theory

    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=58690.

    What they found is similar to that of other papers on technical analysis and specifically momentum based strategies. (again, there are lots of studies on such strategies) They deliver lower returns though with lower volatility than a buy and hold (and note the study showed it required lots of trading.)

    Now all that ignores the impact of trading costs and taxes (especially important since individual investors pay taxes and most higher net worth people hold -or should hold--equities in taxable accounts and bonds in tax-advantaged ones). And you only get to spend AT net returns, not pretax gross returns. So you end up with lower net returns, though higher Sharpe ratio before costs. But the problem is you don't get to spend Sharpe ratios.

    Here is the problem. The right way to decide on an asset allocation is to determine one's ability, willingness and need to take risk. So let's assume you determine you need a 7% return to meet your goal and that means you need say a 70% equity allocation as a buy and holder. If you adopt a timing strategy that might get you (before costs) a higher Sharpe ratio but lower returns, so you have to now start with a higher equity allocation to begin with or you fail to meet the goal--and that raises you back again to more risk, especially the risk of one time events which momentum strategies cannot protect you from because you don't get to sell at the prior close--and market's drop sharply.

    And of course there is no logic to momentum based strategies in the first place--by that I mean there is no risk story. So there is no logical reason for them to be expected to work in the future, even if they worked in the past. This is especially true once it is discovered that an anomaly exists, as the very act of exploiting the anomaly makes it disappear.

    As I said, I worked for major financial institution and sold technical analysis tools developed by really smart people. And they always worked in sample and before costs. The out of sample and after costs results were another story.

  •  
    58

    smpatel

    01/08/10 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    Larry,

    Thanks for the paper. It appears this paper supports the argument that Dow theory indeed provides higher returns on a risk adjusted basis. No?

    regards,

  •  
    59

    larry swedroe

    01/09/10 | Report as spam

    RE: Is Technical Analysis a Waste of Time?

    smpatel
    Not quite. Note the paper says that BEFORE costs, and totally ignores taxes, which individual investors cannot.

    And remember while looking at risk-adjusted returns is important, you cannot spend them. Again, read my post above on this issue.

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Larry Swedroe

Larry Swedroe is principal and director of research for The Buckingham Family of Financial Services. He has authored or co-authored seven books, including The Only Guide to a Winning Investment Strategy You'll Ever Need.

Larry Swedroe

Larry Swedroe is a principal and the director of research for Buckingham Asset Management and BAM Advisor Services. He has also worked with Prudential Home Mortgage and Citicorp, totaling nearly 40 years of managing financial risks for major corporations and advising individuals on ways to do the same.

His opinions and comments expressed on this site are his own and may not accurately reflect those of the firm.

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