Allan Roth

The Irrational Investor
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My Take on Investors Going it Alone (Revisited)

By Allan Roth | Sep 10, 2009 |

Last week, I wrote a two part blog entitled Should Investors Go it Alone and a part II on the subject that argued the better questions were:

  • Are my costs low?
  • Am I diversified?
  • Am I avoiding the herd?

My take was that evidence showed that, as a whole, investors going it alone did better than investors using an adviser. My friend Larry Swedroe, who writes the Wise Investing blog for MoneyWatch.com, argued my take was “misleading and even wrong.” To say he objected strongly to my perspective would be the understatement of the year, and he was not the only one who did. One of the best advisers I know, Rick Ferri, agreed with Larry. As the comments came in, what we agreed upon and what we didn’t came into focus.

Heated agreement - A good adviser can add value

As an investment adviser myself, I have some bias, but I completely agree that a good adviser can add a lot of value to their client. I use the term investment adviser a bit more broadly to mean financial planner. And I think there is agreement as to the ways a good financial planner can add value:

  • Investments — design the portfolio and provide the focus and discipline to rebalance, rather than follow the herd.
  • Financial Planning — cash flow analysis and preparing a plan to safely withdraw assets so as not to outlive one’s money.
  • Risk Management — Determining the insurance needs that can’t be self insured.
  • Taxes — Designing the portfolio to be tax-efficient such as the proper asset location.
  • Estate Planning - Working with an attorney to create a proper estate plan.

I suspect we would also all agree that paying an adviser to pick winners and time the market is a waste of money or worse.

Partial agreement - a reasonable fee

What’s a reasonable fee to pay your adviser? I tend to agree with Rick Ferri that 0.5% or less is a reasonable fee.  Based on my conversations with Larry, I think he would say it should be higher. In full disclosure, I charge by the hour but always keep my fees below that 0.5% bogie that Rick mentioned.

I believe in the following equation — value = benefits - costs.  Thus, Larry may be right as long as those benefits are greater than the costs.

Still disagree - advisers as a whole underperform investors going it alone as a whole

Both Larry and Rick have rejected my argument that the average investor does better than the average adviser. The crux of the disagreement is that they exclude brokers from the category of advisers.  Unfortunately, the word is somewhat blurred in that many brokers charge a percentage of assets while many planners, including CFPs, charge based on transactions.

While this is far from a scientific study, I’ve seen some of the worst stuff sold to clients by CFPs with a fiduciary duty to their client. They can sometimes be freer of a large firm compliance department which allows them to sell this unimaginable garbage. The broker, on the other hand, may have some limits on how badly they can abuse their clients.

Still, I think all three of us would agree that a client shouldn’t seek out an average adviser. The problem is that I’ve never met an adviser who admitted to being below average, and I have no intention of being the first.

Conclusion

So, yes, I do think a good planner can add a ton of value. To find the good ones, you need to ask some tough questions. Then remember you should trust your planner enough to listen, but not so much that you’d follow him off a cliff. You’ll know you’ve found a good planner when you can say “yes” to the three questions at the top of this article.

More on Money Watch

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Should Average Investors do it themselves (part 2)

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  •  
    1

    larry swedroe

    09/10/09 | Report as spam

    RE: My Take on Investors Going it Alone (Revisited)

    Alan
    To qualify as a good advisor one must meet all the tests I recommended an individual require of an advisor when doing due diligence.

    See my recommendations here, which were also posted in our last discussion.

    http://moneywatch.bnet.com/investing/blog/wise-investing/11-principles-for-selecting-an-advisor/505/?tag=col1;blog-river

    The advisors you cite in your examples would obviously not have passed the due diligence process, thus not meeting the requirement of a good advisor.

    Just like when buying a car, using a doctor to perform surgery or any other important decision the individual needs to take responsibility and perform a thorough due diligence to give them the best odds of making the right choice. Of course, being educated about investing gives one a better chance of success.

  •  
    2

    Allan Roth

    09/10/09 | Report as spam

    RE: My Take on Investors Going it Alone (Revisited)

    Larry,

    What took you so long to disagree? How do you do due diligence on a doctor? Do you have any statistics on their success rates?

  •  
    3

    larry swedroe

    09/10/09 | Report as spam

    RE: My Take on Investors Going it Alone (Revisited)

    Alan

    First I was not disagreeing. Just pointing out that your examples were "shortsighted" in that listed examples using the wrong kind of advisor--ones that do not have their clients best interests at heart and ones that don't make recommendations based on evidence but on what makes them the most money.

    And for what it is worth, it is very easy to perform at least some due diligence on a doctor. Surprised you would even ask. And shocked to learn you do not perform such diligence. (:-))

    For example you can learn what school he or she graduated from and how highly regarded a school it is. You can ask other highly respected physicians their opinions of that doctor. And you can ask other patients that have used that doctor. I have never used one without performing such due diligence. Similarly with attorneys I have used and CPAs I have used. The same should be true for investment advisors.

    You can have the last word again.

  •  
    4

    Allan Roth

    09/10/09 | Report as spam

    RE: My Take on Investors Going it Alone (Revisited)

    Larry,

    Let me use your doctor analogy one more time. The way you picked your doctor would be similar to the way one might pick an investment advisory firm:

    The selection was made based on referrals from those I respect. It is one of the top investment advisory firms in the country with millions of clients, so they must be doing something right. They have access to managers that most firms do not via separately managed accounts. They pick the best of the best and fire those that don't cut it. They have the top academic research and are often quoted in the press. They tailored an investment plan for me.

    All of this could lead to picking a top producer at, say, Merrill Lynch, as the investment advisor.

    Your logic is nearly as crisp as saying you are going to let me have the last word and then telling me how wrong I am. happy

    I thought we could agree to disagree but you are proving me wrong on this particular point.

  •  
    5

    larry swedroe

    09/11/09 | Report as spam

    RE: My Take on Investors Going it Alone (Revisited)

    Alan
    I tried to give you the last word but you keep mixing two issues. In effect misquoting my statements. I keep saying individuals need to choose the right kind of advisors. Choosing the wrong kind can lead to major mistakes.

    Due diligence is important with any choice of "advisor." For different professions you need to perform different acts to get it right. There are differences between the due diligence one can do on a doctor (like there is no form ADV) and one can do on an RIA.

    You really should read my list of due diligence questions. Anyone following my suggestions would never have chosen any of the advisors in your examples (making them irrelevant for the purposes of our discussion) or a Merrill Lynch advisor either as they fail the tests. So we agree you should avoid those type advisors. You simply have to choose the right kind. And it is not that hard to do. Just follow my list

    I would add this, you cite that these firms have access to the top academic research, which is totally irrelevant since they don't base their recommendations on the research. Access is meaningless unless you use it. They cannot show you studies to support their recommendations. And the research certainly does not support selling the products you refer to.

    The problem with your analysis is simply you keep showing examples of using the wrong type of advisors. We completely agree that no one should be working with them. And I applaud your writing about the wrong kind of advisors and exposing them. But that is irrelevant to this discussion. Simply follow my recommendations and it is highly likely you will find the right kind of advisor.

    I hope we are clear that we completely agree that choosing the wrong kind of advisor is a mistake. I believe that it is not hard for someone to learn how to choose the right kind. They just need to do a little work. That takes following my recommendations. And that includes reading the literature, like books like yours and mine so they kind differentiate good from bad advisors. But of course that takes an interest in investing (:-))

    Just some examples of my point. The advisors you cite don't act as a fidiciary. They don't base recommendations on the science of investing, or evidence based investing. They don't work on fee only basis, accepting commissions, leading to conflicts of interests. And if anyone bothered to check the ADVs they would likely find numerous complaints.

    So where exactly do we disagree? Are you saying it is hard to find a good advisor if you read books like mine and yours and Bogle's and Bernstein's and follow my recommendations? I would hope not. Anyone doing so would never choose the kind of advisors you point out in your examples.

  •  
    6

    Allan Roth

    09/11/09 | Report as spam

    RE: My Take on Investors Going it Alone (Revisited)

    Larry,

    Where we disagree is plain and simple. Using your questions in your column below could easily have a very smart person going with the Merrill Lynch trust department, or worse.

    http://moneywatch.bnet.com/investing/blog/wise-investing/11-principles-for-selecting-an-advisor/505/?tag=col1;blog-river

    Perhaps you and I could see through the thousands of pages of disclosure, but most investors couldn't.

    Can we at least agree that we can't agree to disagree? happy

  •  
    7

    larry swedroe

    09/11/09 | Report as spam

    RE: My Take on Investors Going it Alone (Revisited)

    Alan
    With all due respect, it is virtually impossible that anyone adhering to my list would even remotely consider, let alone hire, anyone working at Merrill Lynch or any other stock broker---unless they committed to a fiduciary standard--which none I know of do--let alone other of the standards I had set.

    And the products you referred to I assume were commission-based, which also would have ruled out working with those advisors.

    In fact I am really shocked to hear you say otherwise.

    Also, you don't need to read thousands of pages to avoid those mistakes.

    And anyone looking at the ADV would almost certainly find complaints. Good sign to run as fast as you can. If you are not willing to take the time to read an ADV you only have yourself to blame for the problems that can result. Investing is simple, but not easy. That is why no second grader can do it. Simple and easy are different things.

    Finally, your assets are the third most important thing in your life, after health and family. You better take an interest in protecting your interests or you have only yourself to blame.

    Before I underwent eye surgery I did a tremendous amount of due diligence on doctors, getting dozens of references, and ultimately chose to work with the doctor who trains others to do the surgery and had done thousands of successful surgeries.

    The same type of due diligence is required when hiring an advisor. Anyone not doing so only has themselves to blame. And they should also take the time to learn about investing so they can make an informed decision.

    So I guess we disagree--I believe it is relatively easy to avoid bad advisors. It does take some effort, but it is important so the effort should be made.

    Since I have nothing more to add, you really can have the last word.



  •  
    8

    Allan Roth

    09/11/09 | Report as spam

    RE: My Take on Investors Going it Alone (Revisited)

    Larry,

    Regarding your statement "I believe it is relatively easy to avoid bad advisors." why then do you think so many millions of investors use bad advisers? Are you saying they are stupid or lazy?

    I've seen some really smart people pick some really bad advisers that passed every one of the tests in your column.

    I once thought you and I agreed on 99% of stuff and just had fun debating the other 1%. Maybe it's only 80% - 90% that we agree on.


  •  
    9

    larry swedroe

    09/12/09 | Report as spam

    RE: My Take on Investors Going it Alone (Revisited)

    Alan
    I really would like to give you the last word, but you asked the question.

    So here is the answer. As I said before, I think it is simple, but not easy. You have to actually do some work. And unfortunately most Americans are IMO either lazy when it comes to investing --they would rather watch some reality TV show or reading some romance novel (not that there is anything wrong with those activities) than spend time learning about something far more important to their lives. That is why books like Bogle's, Bernstein's, yours and mine are not national bestsellers. But books by Cramer and other how to get rich books are. Anyone taking the time to read any of our books would never have chosen to work with such an advisor.

    To demonstrate how simple it is, if one is willing to put in some work, I again offer the following from my list to show how easy it is to avoid bad advisors.

    First rule is to work only with advisory firms that provide a fiduciary standard of care. Merrill Lynch does not offer that level of care to all its clients. So that would have saved the investor from the evils you cited right before they even got out of the batter's box. There is no reason to settle for a suitability standard of care when a fiduciary one is available. So the advisor never even gets to first base, let alone home plate.

    Second, another rule is to work with advisors that sell advice, not products. At Merrill Lynch they sell products. So you don't get unbiased advice. Most also work on commissions--products have commissions or high fees attached to them. That violates another rule.

    Third, another rule is that the advice is based on the science of investing. When you or I talk to clients about our investment strategy we actually cite the academic research supporting all of our recommendations--including studies on active vs. passive investing, how to locate assets in the proper location, etc. Obviously that is not the case at Merrill.

    Fourth, there is the rule about making sure the advisor puts their money where their mouth is. When we sit down with prospects we state very clearly that we invest our own money in the very same vehicles we recommend to our clients. I even offer to pull out my statements to show them that is so. And our firm's profit sharing and retirement plans offer only the very products we recommend. So we put our money where our mouth is. I would bet you do the same. What are the odds that an advisor at Merrill has their personal investments in the same vehicles they are recommending? Care to bet on whether Merrill's retirement plans require their employees to invest in the same vehicles they are recommending? And care to bet on whether the Merrill advisors actually own all the products they recommend?

    Fifth, another rule is that advice be client centric. All one would have to do is interview people who have worked at Merrill Lynch and ask them about that. Merrill, like most B/Ds, is product, not client, centric. The products are at the top of the pyramid, not the client as is the case with my firm, and yours and anyone offering fiduciary standard of care. Merrill creates products or gains access, and then distributes it through their channels. Here is an actual statement from an "unnamed" B/D to demonstrate this point.

    "My branch managers only want producers who will pick the gold from their grandmother's teeth. Now that we have the gun to your head and we are into your pockets, do as you are told, sell what we want you to sell when we want you to sell it, or we'll fire you and hire someone else. Then we will sue you for what we lent you and make damn well sure that you never see your book of business again." ?Unnamed former Vice President of Sales of a major Broker-Dealer

    Sixth, if you are not lazy you will also follow my advice to do a thorough reading of the firm's ADV, which they are required to provide. Now I am willing to bet that when you give your ADV to a prospective client and tell them to read it when the get to the complaints section they will find a blank space. Care to bet on what they will find for Merrill Lynch? They don't even have to look. Over the years, the papers are filled with settlements B/Ds have made (rarely admitting guilt but paying the fines nevertheless). But you should look.

    Any one of the above would have been enough to warn investors away from working with such advisors, let alone all 6. So anyone ending up with such an advisor clearly only has themselves to blame for failing to do what is simple due diligence, but does take some effort. The kind of effort I put in when I choose a doctor or lawyer or CPA. So the only explanation left is either laziness or they have not put in the effort to learn what they need to do before hiring an advisor. Again, laziness. At least IMO.

    These are all simple steps and would have protected anyone from the evils you and I both agree are committed by the wrong type of advisors. But there is simply no excuse for choosing the wrong kind when the right kind is relatively easy to find. Just takes some effort, effort that is well rewarded


  •  
    10

    Allan Roth

    09/12/09 | Report as spam

    RE: My Take on Investors Going it Alone (Revisited)

    Larry,

    I suspect you don't work directly with clients (or at least those with only moderate net worth) and are a bit out of touch on this one. Consider the worst case I've seen to date on the CFP who build a living off of one client -

    First rule is to work only with advisory firms that provide a fiduciary standard of care.

    This CFP was a fiduciary

    Second, another rule is to work with advisors that sell advice.

    This CFP sold his services, not his products.

    Third, another rule is that the advice is based on the science of investing.

    This CFP gave the client many academic papers to support his views.

    Fourth, there is the rule about making sure the advisor puts their money where their mouth is.

    This CFP claimed to invest the same way.

    Fifth, another rule is that advice be client centric.

    Everything about this CFP came off as client centric.

    Sixth, if you are not lazy you will also follow my advice to do a thorough reading of the firm's ADV, which they are required to provide.

    This CFP had no disciplinary action noted on the ADV. Client filed but regulators found no wrong doing.

    Larry, this is far more common than you might imagine. You can keep arguing but here you are arguing against the facts.

  •  
    11

    Wealth Builder

    09/12/09 | Report as spam

    RE: My Take on Investors Going it Alone (Revisited)

    Allan,

    Thank you for cutting through the chase. You are so right in that a good and ethical advisor is extremely difficult to find. And I said that from my own accurate past experience.

    I wish you all the success in your profession.

  •  
    12

    Allan Roth

    09/12/09 | Report as spam

    RE: My Take on Investors Going it Alone (Revisited)

    Wealthbuilder,

    Thanks! I always say, trust an adviser enough to listen, but never enough to follow blindly.

  •  
    13

    larry swedroe

    09/13/09 | Report as spam

    RE: My Take on Investors Going it Alone (Revisited)

    Alan

    First your assumption is wrong. I have worked with thousands of clients. That is because I not only work with the clients of my own firm but with the clients of the over 100 other firms we work with as strategic partners. And I have worked with the full spectrum of wealth.

    Second, any set of rules cannot protect one against every situation. But they would protect against the vast majority. For example, you stated that following them would not prevent them from hiring a Merrill advisor. That is false as I showed.

    Third, in the case of the CFP you cite--did the CFP show his financial statement to show he owned the same securities? Or did someone just take their word? (the person most likely you con you is a con artist) Did the person get independent references from respected leaders in the financial community---attorneys, CPAs?

    Since you have not described the situation with the CFP and what was sold I cannot respond to see if the rules would have protected the client in this case. But again, it may not protect against all (which is sad), but certainly most.

    I also agree that there are far too many advisors that should not be used, but there are still thousands that can be trusted and they are not so hard to find. You just have to do the work and you greatly put the odds in your favor.

    And this is no different than with any profession, lawyers, doctors, etc. You have to do the work

  •  
    14

    Allan Roth

    09/13/09 | Report as spam

    RE: My Take on Investors Going it Alone (Revisited)

    Larry,

    Do you review clients' portfolios before they come to you? Do you show clients your financial statements? May I see your finanical statements? Is the fee structure you pay the same as what a client pays?

    There are some analogies between financial advisers and doctors and lawyers. Their are some differences as well. One, which we do not agree on, is that unlike doctors, an average consumer is better off doing it themselves than going to an average adviser.

  •  
    15

    Wealth Builder

    09/13/09 | Report as spam

    RE: My Take on Investors Going it Alone (Revisited)

    Dear Mr. Swedroe and Mr. Roth,

    You guys have been arguing for a long time and the arguments are going nowhere. Can you just agree to disagree? I think two of you have a lot in common. So, please stop the war of words and go back to provide more good advice on this blog.

    Thank you for listening and best regards to both.

  •  
    16

    Allan Roth

    09/13/09 | Report as spam

    RE: My Take on Investors Going it Alone (Revisited)

    Wealth Builder,

    Are you kidding me? We can't even agree to agree to disagree.

    Your point is well taken.

  •  
    17

    larry swedroe

    09/14/09 | Report as spam

    RE: My Take on Investors Going it Alone (Revisited)

    Alan
    Yes I have reviewed people's statements before they come in.

    And yes I have showed my brokerage account statement to people and showed the firm's retirement plan statements

    And what the heck does the fee I pay have anything to do with the situation? The only issue is does an advisor add value beyond the fee charged.

  •  
    18

    Allan Roth

    09/14/09 | Report as spam

    RE: My Take on Investors Going it Alone (Revisited)

    Larry,

    Wow - I'm impressed you show actual statements. I only show a Morningstar X-Ray with percentages and costs. Fees matter greatly since they are the only statistical predictor of value.

    Wealthbuilder is right - we will not convince each other of our different positions on this issue.

  •  
    19

    funddaddy

    09/15/09 | Report as spam

    RE: My Take on Investors Going it Alone (Revisited)

    Allan and Larry,
    Keep it going...I love it.
    I agree with Allan on "an average consumer is better off doing it themselves than going to an average adviser."

    Over the years I talked to a few dozen FA and found out I know more than they do and I'm not one.

    I challenge each one of them to sign a "simple" contract.
    I will show them my managed funds and see if they can beat it taking the same Beta, Alpha (and some other measurements).
    I will pay them an additional 50% (on top of their fee) of the profit above my performance AND they will pay me 10% of loss below my performance....not bad 5:1 in their favor...can't find any FA to take the offer.

    Most FA are good sale people but average at best investors.

    You guys have so many titles nobody can keep up?Financial Advisor, Financial Planner, broker, Certified Financial Planner, Banker and more.
    You also have different competing institutions.

    Where is the criterion to measure a FA? Where is the test? As long as FA is in the ball park then it?s OK.
    How about some standards?like FA must invest at least 50% in no load index funds with total annual expense less than 0.5%.
    How about showing me past performance after all expenses.

    I don't have any statistics but I would trust no more than 10% of all FA and BTW...you two on this list.
    How is the average person can find a true good adviser?...I have no idea!...but Larry's list is a good start.

  •  
    20

    Allan Roth

    09/15/09 | Report as spam

    RE: My Take on Investors Going it Alone (Revisited)

    funddaddy,

    Thanks. We may both have a lot of titles but I'm the only one with a plaque naming my dog as one of America's top financial planners of 2009:

    http://moneywatch.bnet.com/investing/blog/irrational-investor/my-dog-americas-top-financial-planner/326/#comments

  •  
    21

    Allan Roth

    09/16/09 | Report as spam

    RE: My Take on Investors Going it Alone (Revisited)

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Allan Roth

Allan S. Roth is the founder of Wealth Logic, an hourly based financial planning and investment advisory firm that advises clients with portfolios ranging from $10,000 to $50 million. He is mocked on a semi-regular basis by some financial professionals for his hourly fee model and its obvious inability to make him rich.

Roth is also the author of How A Second Grader Beats Wall Street. He teaches behavioral finance at the University of Denver and is an adjunct faculty member at Colorado College.

Allan Roth

Allan Roth has a lot of credentials (CFP, CPA, MBA) and business experience (McKinsey consulting and officers of mega-billion dollar companies). But he insists that said credentials and business experience do not interfere with his ability to keep investing simple.

Roth has worked with many a lawyer over the years, so he feels compelled to note that his columns are not meant as specific investment advice, especially since any such advice would need to take into account such things as each reader’s willingness and need to take risk, which can vary significantly. His columns will specifically avoid such foolishness as predicting the next “hot stock” or what the stock market will do next month. Roth’s goal is never to be confused with Jim Cramer.

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